Sash bar dimensions for historical windows

[johnnyb]

guys chill out it's just not worth becoming aerated about. for the purposes of this thread you are both relative experts. so please post freely but no critiques of each other anyone else but not each other. and that isn't sarcasm.

 

[Adam W.]

You still haven't got it have you?
It's much less work using the rod, not least because it reduces error. It's the final full sized working drawing which verifies that everything fits. Just happens to be useful to have it on a board in the workshop. No need to transfer measurements with a tape with associated errors, still less to do any little calculations, it's all been done and you just drop the work on to the rod.
Once you have it sorted you are on auto pilot.
No "several copies" involved. You could make 100 identical sash windows from the one single rod.
The same applies to all the other crafts and industries who work from full size patterns one way or another.
MDF is just more convenient and cheaper than having to plane up a real wood board. The books go on about having to paint them with whiting etc.

I see you have changed your post after I posted my response.....Well done. LOL

 

[Adam W.]

@Jacob Anyway I will reply to one of your now amended post.

I don't transfer anything using a tape and I don't make any calculations, as it's all marked on a stick once and transfered to the ganged up stock lying on the bench with a square, much like the guy's in the video that you couldn't be bothered to watch, but were quite happy to dismiss.

It's starting to look like you are the one who is confused as it appears that you can't make your mind up.

 

[Jacob]

@Jacob Anyway I will reply to one of your now amended post.

What amendment exactly? I think I added "Once you have it sorted you are on auto pilot." or something along those lines.

I don't transfer anything using a tape and I don't make any calculations, as it's all marked on a stick once and transfered to the ganged up stock lying on the bench with a square, much like the guy's in the video that you couldn't be bothered to watch, but were quite happy to dismiss.

It's starting to look like you are the one who is confused as it appears that you can't make your mind up.

He never rests!
How do you ascertain the position of the marks on the stick? Do you just guess? No measuring or calculating?
Please don't bother to answer this is getting silly.

 

[johnnyb]

please don't spoil this post it's going great guns.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

... this is getting silly.

I tend to agree. I've developed a good deal of respect for both you and Adam for the knowledge you both possess, and I admit I'm a bit disappointed to see you apparently bickering. Maybe you're not bickering, but exchanging pleasantries: who knows?

Maybe I don't understand the differences between rods, story sticks and storey sticks, but I suspect the process is something like as below, which I know as measuring up a space, creating what I call rods, and finally using the rods to transfer dimensions, joints and other relevant bits of information to wood so that it's cut and shaped in the right places and the correct profile. To me, it's something like as follows for a bit of furniture which I accept is not exactly the same as in bench joinery.

1. Measure up space using two sets of telescoping sticks clamped together, one for vertical and one for horizontal dimensions. The telescoping sticks are useful because you can define and record the longest and shortest dimension in a space, as below, plus pick up any other relevant information, e.g., electrical outlets, vents, etc.

​

The above was from one job, and the images below belong to another job, but from the on-site sticks used above, plus notes made on site, plus sketches and maybe photos, create rods such as the ones below.

2. Below. Compressed planned section for breakfront cabinet.

​

3. Below. Rods for both vertical and horizontal dimensions and other details for the same built-in as seen above.

​

4. Below. Using one of the rods above to mark the length of a vertical built-in member prior to setting the saw's cross cut length stop so that the other vertical members are all cut to the same dimension. Note that's not an old mobile phone at my waist, it's just a regular land line job, ha, ha. This image came from a time prior to me owning a mobile.

​

5. Below. End result 1

​

6. Below. End result 2. A built-in fold down bed.

 

[Jacob]

I tend to agree. I've developed a good deal of respect for both you and Adam for the knowledge you both possess, and I admit I'm a bit disappointed to see you apparently bickering. Maybe you're not bickering, but exchanging pleasantries: who knows?

Maybe I don't understand the differences between rods, story sticks and storey sticks, but I suspect the process is something like as below, which I know as measuring up a space, creating what I call rods, and finally using the rods to transfer dimensions, joints and other relevant bits of information to wood so that it's cut and shaped in the right places and the correct profile. To me, it's something like as follows for a bit of furniture which I accept is not exactly the same as in bench joinery.

1. Measure up space using two sets of telescoping sticks clamped together, one for vertical and one for horizontal dimensions. The telescoping sticks are useful because you can define and record the longest and shortest dimension in a space, as below, plus pick up any other relevant information, e.g., electrical outlets, vents, etc.

View attachment 165250
​

The above was from one job, and the images below belong to another job, but from the on-site sticks used above, plus notes made on site, plus sketches and maybe photos, create rods such as the ones below.

2. Below. Compressed planned section for breakfront cabinet.

View attachment 165252
​

3. Below. Rods for both vertical and horizontal dimensions and other details for the same built-in as seen above.

View attachment 165253

View attachment 165254
​

4. Below. Using one of the rods above to mark the length of a vertical built-in member prior to setting the saw's cross cut length stop so that the other vertical members are all cut to the same dimension. Note that's not an old mobile phone at my waist, it's just a regular land line job, ha, ha. This image came from a time prior to me owning a mobile.

View attachment 165255
​

5. Below. End result 1

View attachment 165256
​

6. Below. End result 2. A built-in fold down bed.

View attachment 165257

View attachment 165258​

Not actually hovering over the keyboard I just came in from the workshop for a cup of tea!

"Rod" for me means the full size sectional drawing on a board, or as much of it as I would need, for marking up from directly. No measurements on it and notes only as needed.
The other things are sticks

Similar but different. Sets of telescoping sticks a good idea but a 5m Stanley tape a better one! Stays stiff enough for about 2.5m, or just mark a halfway point and measure up and down from that, then just the usual scruffy notes.
I didn't use the TS for precision lengths particularly, too many different shapes, sizes and lengths, so easier to do lots of marking on the components themselves - actually layed and stacked on the rod as I described above then cutting everything to marks.
The marks become like a bar code after a bit and you recognise a particular arrangement as representing say the rebate, haunch, finished length etc. In other words fairly orthodox as per the book, with variations!

 

[johnnyb]

the last bay window I made like that revealed the issues weren't with rods and measures but a. finding 4×9 inch red deal. b cutting it up. both weight and size c getting it square.
it was middle of the pandemic and the source wasn't Sweden but Finland. without suitable large equipment its very hard work.
I discovered the window I was copying had been made the wrong and required a 7 inch cill to match in the interior joinery. I ended up making it in redwood and wrapping it in lead! to match the downstairs sandstone cill.

 

[johnnyb]

of course getting the blooming thing up there in the first place. the next next picture reveals why conservation officers are morons. that rounded corner style was copied from the adjacent block as that houses twin was plastic. then the original rounded corner window house had the windows remade in iroko but finished in varnish. I think the house I worked on originally had square corners with ogee moulds.

 

[Jacob]

the last bay window I made like that revealed the issues weren't with rods and measures but a. finding 4×9 inch red deal. b cutting it up. both weight and size c getting it square.
it was middle of the pandemic and the source wasn't Sweden but Finland. without suitable large equipment its very hard work.
I discovered the window I was copying had been made the wrong and required a 7 inch cill to match in the interior joinery. I ended up making it in redwood and wrapping it in lead! to match the downstairs sandstone cill.

Very nice windows!
I used to get all my stuff from Hanrahans, in Sutton in Ashfield, which became Snows, now something else. They kept loads of unsorted Swedish redwood.

 

[HOJ]

the next next picture reveals why conservation officers are morons

Ditto:


Official listing from 1976: Circa 17th century 2 storey and attic, gabled dormer, timber framed, plastered, brick plinth, pantiles, 1 sash window in flush frame, 4 flush frame casements at 1st floor.

So what did they have us make, STORMPROOF windows with 12mm Slim glass units (I hate the stuff).

 

[johnnyb]

these people seem to have very little knowledge about joinery. but have very big opinions on there favourite things. they should undergo training and know there role. instead we get huge variations from one place to the next. resulting on the border" oh if you lived on the opposite side you'd be fine with that." " but this side your wasting your time"
don't think it's poor people that destroy heritage. it's always the wealthy putting tasteless inappropriate extensions on old buildings. always. and once it's done it's gone forever.

 

[Jacob]

They do get some training but you have to tell them what is really needed. They are sometimes quite greatful!

 

[johnnyb]

I think all listed property should be inspected every 10 years. with comparison photos. if that's to excessive then maybe some should never have been listed.

 

[steve355]

I am liking this rod thing. Not only can I transfer the dimensions to the work, but whenever I have any questions about what I should be doing, or whether a dimension is right, I just place the work on the rod and it answers it for me.

I’ve done the sill now, on with the jambs and head tomorrow.

 

[Jacob]

I am liking this rod thing. Not only can I transfer the dimensions to the work, but whenever I have any questions about what I should be doing, or whether a dimension is right, I just place the work on the rod and it answers it for me.

Absolutely. And you can add notes as you go.
According to the books the one rod would follow the batch of work through a large workshop so that whoever was working on it would have it as a reference, everybody singing from the same sheet (or board in this case).
Otherwise you might get 20 otherwise perfect lights which don't quite fit 20 otherwise perfect frames..etc

I’ve done the sill now, on with the jambs and head tomorrow.

And casement details, with clearance gaps, glazing bars, rebates, glass with 2mm clearance (if you need to remind yourself but normally wouldn't bother) you can even put in marks for the hardware if you already have it.
If multi paned, getting the glass sizes exactly identical is another little task. You put the rails and stiles in first and then divide the space between them with adjustments for glazing bars. You can check that panes are identical with a pair of dividers. Then you can order the glass as you know it will fit.
Hardware no prob with a normal door/window but if you are doing something out of the ordinary it could be good to get the hardware first and adjust the rod/design if necessary, rather than desperately looking for less ordinary hardware after you have made the thing.
PS a light in a frame such as your design, might need a drip rail at the top.This could be a simple add on, or you could make the head the same width as the cill and cut a drip groove in it.

 

[Bristol_Rob]

Hardware no prob with a normal door/window but if you are doing something out of the ordinary it could be good to get the hardware first and adjust the rod/design if necessary, rather than desperately looking for less ordinary hardware after you have made the thing.

Great comment - hadn't thought of this before.

 

[HOJ]

Then you can order the glass as you know it will fit.

That is a part I don't do until everything is made, I get close but sometimes a little tweak makes a difference, I'm waiting on 4 pieces of glass for 2 of these:



@ £1025.00!

 

[Jacob]

That is a part I don't do until everything is made, I get close but sometimes a little tweak makes a difference, I'm waiting on 4 pieces of glass for 2 of these:

View attachment 165300

@ £1025.00!

er. efff me! It's not difficult to cut you know. You'd need a template for the curve so you can do it in one smooth stroke.

 

[HOJ]

It's not difficult to cut you know.

If only life was that simple: Expensive!