Sander and dust extractor

[Mjward]

I've put this purchase off as I've felt dust extraction didn't directly contribute to what I was making and there were always other tools that took precedence etc ... But after covering a room in sanding dust and having a whole house to renovate I've decided to address the issue.

On the dust extraction side, my search on this forum suggests to bite the bullet and go for Festool (will go M-class 240v).

On the sanding side, I've bought cheap previously (got Erbauer random orbital, Bosch Mouse and DeWalt sheet) but they've all been fine. However, with a significant amount of sanding ahead, I'd like to get one with less vibration and connectable to the Festool extractor. I'll need a random orbital and a mouse/detail sander.

1) I know Festool do combo jobs for £500, are they any good?
2) is there a high quality separate orbital and mouse that won't cost more than £500?

 

[paulrbarnard]

I recently bought a MIDI and the 150 ROS. Simply can’t fault it. For years I have scraped our kitchen worktop to refinish. I used the sander this time and finished in a fraction of the time and absolutely no dust to be seen.
I think it is a purchase that will stand the test of time.

 

[MikeK]

The only Festool combo sander I know of is the Rotex RO 90, which comes with the 90mm round and delta sanding heads and costs more than £500 new. I have the RO 90, but would not recommend it for lengthy sanding jobs when there are other sanders better suited for large jobs.

I have the Festool ETC ES 150/3 for my main ROS, which replaced an older Bosch green 150mm ROS. The Bosch was good, but dust extraction was poor and the vibration at the grip was significant. I could only use it for about 20 minutes at a time because of the dust and vibration, but my hands would tingle for hours. I can use the Festool sander all day without any issues and no residual tingling.

My shop portable extractor is a Festool CTL 26 E, with the Oneida Ultimate Dust Deputy Cyclone. I could have used a smaller vacuum, but I received a great deal on the CTL 26 E fitted with the Bluetooth module. The UDD can be modified to fit on the CTL 15, MINI, and MIDI.

Concerning the M class, the only difference between the L and M class Festool vacuums is the audible alarm in the M class that alerts the user when the airflow through the system drops. However, both versions use the same filters and bags. Unless you are in a commercial operation and bound by regulations, I would not spend the extra money on an M class vacuum (but that's my opinion), especially if you connect a cyclone separator to the vacuum. I can't remember how many times I've replaced the UDD dust bag, but the inside of the CTL 26 E is as clean as it was the day I bought it and still uses the original empty bag and pristine filter.

The other important factor to consider is variable suction on the vacuum. My Kärcher WD5 can almost pull a bowling ball through the hose, but it is not a good fit for the ROS. The strong vacuum pulls the ROS pad to the board and restricts the freedom of movement. The ability to reduce the suction to the point where the ROS moves freely and still captures the dust is a great feature.

 

[Inspector]

Mike and others. Even though Festool sanders are not at the moment making your hands tingle it will only be a matter of time. I wear them all the time for any tool that make the slightest shake in order to reduce further damage to my hands. Best ones I have found are the Impacto Air Gloves. They make a huge difference and I highly recommend them. I recently bought a Mirka Deros with the 2.5mm orbit and I still need the gloves even for a few minutes work. It is me and not the sander which is a great sander by the way. An example of the gloves below. No doubt you can find other sources.

https://www.safetygloves.co.uk/impacto-bg408-impact-vibration-resistant-air-gloves.html
Pete

 

[Mjward]

Thank you all, this is really great and has set me off on another research journey for which I now have a few more questions:

Extractor: that's very interesting re the L vs M as I thought it was just a case of if you're sanding wood you need the M so its good news the L will cut the mustard too. Would I be right in assuming the MIDI vs MINI is simply a power/capacity difference or is there more to it than that?

Sander: I will predominantly be using it to sand wood filler and as a finishing/denibbing sander between coats of paint. Most of what I am building consists of build in wardrobes and cabinets/bookcases etc I a lot of vertical work. With that in mind

(1) Will I benefit from the difference between the ETS and ETS EC which seems to mostly consist of a power difference?

(2) I've been using a 125mm ROS, it seems and even split between those that prefer 125 vs 150, weight & one handed operation vs speed & area covered etc, for the work I am doing combined with the weight struggles with existing 125, would there be any reason for me to opt for the 150 instead?

(3) Think I'm going to avoid the combi option and look at separate devices, the ROS I think I will go down the ETS/ETS EC 125/150 route but for corners/tight spots I think the minimal use for me doesn't warrant a premium device. At best I am thinking the Festool DTS Delta 400 but thats really so it has perfect connectivity to the extractor. Is there a non-Festool/substantially cheaper alternative that will also play nice with the Festool extractor ?

(4) Any views on battery vs corded? The way I see it is that battery gives you less wires tangling but you have the added weight and charging times (I don't own any own Festool products so would be new battery/charger line). That said, I am a tad confused about the bluetooth function as it seems brilliant to have the extractor turn on/off with the sander, but is that only on battery operated sanders as it seems the bluetooth function is related to the battery and not the device or have I got that all wrong?

Lastly, great point on the gloves Pete. I didn't even know they existed but again after a bit of research seems exactly what I need so thank you

 

[Fireburst]

If you are doing a lot of sanding, I would also consider the Mirka Deros, as it has a lot less vibration than even my Festool, which was a vast improvement from my Makita. It also gives results that are as good if not better than my Festool, and the dust control is excellent too.

 

[Inspector]

If and that is a big if, you have the air compressor capacity the air powered versions of the Mirka sanders are about 1/3 the cost of the electric ones. If you can do air power then explore the industrial brands like Dynabrade. They have every conceivable kind of sander, grinder etc in a huge array of sizes. Air powered tools are a shop based solution and not suitable, because of air requirements, for job site work.

Pete

 

[Sideways]

Shop vacs, including festool, numatic and others all use similar motors with similar powers. There is little to choose between on that score. The festool extractors are almost identical across the range except for the smallest and the ones in a systainer.
A good auto filter clean can be useful, especially if you use the extractor with cement and masonry dust but probably not essential.
Twin motor vacs have their uses but are not needed for sanding.
Variable power is useful to reduce the suction force pulling the sander down onto the work.
A "bypass" motor is an important feature. Airflow through a sander is actually quite restricted and if you use a basic vacuum cleaner that relies on the "dirty" airflow going on through the motor after the dust bag to cool it, you are likely to overheat the vac in 15 to 30 minutes use. You then have to wait until the motor cools off and will restart.

For the sanders, look at the vibration numbers given in the manufacturer specification and compare.
That takes the subjectivity out of it.
Better brand ROS tend to be the best, as you would expect for the price. But look at the specs of any models you are serious about. The air sanders used by auto bodyshops are v good if you have the air supply.
5 and 6" pads are generally interchangeable, even included in the kit, on a lot of ROSs.
Gear driven Rotex type sanders are powerful but don't have the lowest available vibration.
Pete's advice is good. He recently researched it as you are doing.

 

[MikeK]

(1) Will I benefit from the difference between the ETS and ETS EC which seems to mostly consist of a power difference?

There are lots of differences between the ETS and ETS EC models besides power. The ETS EC has a brushless motor, is lighter, has a different shape, and costs quite a bit more than the ETS model. I tried both versions in the Festool dealership and preferred the ETS EC 150/3.

(4) Any views on battery vs corded? The way I see it is that battery gives you less wires tangling but you have the added weight and charging times (I don't own any own Festool products so would be new battery/charger line).

I have cordless drills and impact drivers, but anything that connects to the extractor is corded. I don't even notice the power cord, compared to the 27mm or 36mm hose.

That said, I am a tad confused about the bluetooth function as it seems brilliant to have the extractor turn on/off with the sander, but is that only on battery operated sanders as it seems the bluetooth function is related to the battery and not the device or have I got that all wrong?

The optional BT module for the extractor comes with one remote and two rubber straps for attaching the remote to the hose. The BT module works with the remote or the BT module in the cordless battery. I keep the remote attached to the end of the hose so I can use the extractor without any tools connected to it.

I don't have any cordless tools with BT batteries, but the BT batteries function the same as the remote to turn on the vacuum. The battery is paired to the BT module in the extractor, so the extractor will start as soon as the tool with the paired battery is started. While the BT module will allow up to five remote buttons to be paired, it will only allow one battery. Each battery change requires the new battery to be paired, which will remove the previous battery. Fortunately, the pairing operation is easy and fast.

The power cables of my corded tools plug into the receptacle on the front panel of the extractor. With the extractor's power switch set to "Auto", the extractor will turn on as soon as the tool is turned on or I press the button on the BT remote.

 

[thetyreman]

numatic are very good vacuum's, don't discard them before looking at festool, the bags are cheap and they are very robust with easily replaceable parts.

 

[naughtymoose]

I have the Rotex 90 and have used it in both normal and "beast" mode, and also used the delta attachment. I also have the RTS 400, which is an orbital, not an eccentric sander. I bought this on the recommendation of a decorator pal, as I have a lot of woodwork and plaster to prepare for painting.

Both machines are excellent when connected to my Midi-L and will do perfectly for my house renovation.

 

[Mjward]

Thanks all, progress is being made! I think given the nature of the work required i.e. working from room to room for a mixture of woodworking and decorative purposes I need to view it from a job-site perspective. I think the other reason to not go down the air powered route in my situation, is where I am from a tool procurement basis, i.e. if I didn't already have expensive battery powered nails guns etc etc it would make going down the air route a lot more practical.

With regards to extractor, Numatic is a new brand to me but I've some browsing they do indeed look like excellent kit and you seem to get more capacity per price point than Festool although with the latter they seem to edge it on warranty/filter but I suspect net net there is little in it and comes down to personal preference or integration with other tools etc.

On the sander vibration stats that was a great shout. I didn't even think to see if they were published. My current cheap Erbaeur is 1.6kg in weight with vibration of 12.7 m/s..... can see why I find it such a pain when I compare to Festool around 1.2kg in weight and vibration down to 3.5 m/s or the Mirka at 1kg and 3.4 m/s. On that note, it does seem that the good quality sanders all fight in a very similar weight when it comes to those stats (although even lower for the air powered kit).

I think from what you have said and from some research that indeed it is worth forking out for the ETS EC if going down that route. I was struggling to find availability for the ETS EC 125, the 150 seems a lot easier to get and then went to the Festool UK website and the 125 is no longer listed in the ETS EC flavour, just ETS so I don't know if they have pulled this product but either way, look at the weight/vibration figures I shouldn't fear the 150. An alternative I found was the MIRKA DEROS 5650CV SOLUTION KIT, coming in at a similar price point but unlike the Festool ETS EC 150, this actively permits interchangeability between 125 and 150 pads (although don't know why you would need to change), however it is 0.2kg lighter than the Festool. I think it's a toss up between the Festool ETS EC 150 & Festool MIDI extractor vs Mirka Deros 5650CV and Numatic NV750 extractor. Nothing really in it when it comes to price and I suspect at the end of the day both would be fine choices. I note the Festool 150 comes in 3 and 5mm strokes, I am guessing for finishing I should opt for the 3mm flavour.

Re battery vs corded, thank you for that info, it makes sense now for me to go down the corded route, the auto start & BT remote seem a great feature on the festool. Do you clip your sander cords to your extraction hose or is that unnecessary?

Finally, for getting into corners on cabinets/doors/wardrobes and so forth, what would encourage you to opt for the Festool 400 RTS vs DTS, i.e. palm vs mouse if you can only pick one?

Thanks again, hopefully can press the buy button in the next 24 hrs as my wife is going away for 2 weeks and won't notice the delivery

 

[Inspector]

Don't overlook the Mirka dust extractor. Someday I hope to collect enough pop and beer cans to get one.

Pete

 

[Ollie78]

I would vote for Mirka sanders and Festool extractors.
I own 2 festool vacuums and they are really very good, the new flexible cloth covered hose would convince me to buy the Festool over the Mirka extractor (the Mirka one is actually a Nilfisk).

I would say get a Fein saw for corner sanding then you can use it for all sorts of other stuff. A Deros for wider flat surfaces.

Vibration is not the only concern in choosing a sander, the mirka models are low profile like air sanders, this makes a lot of difference to the way the handle. I tried a Makita ROS and it was very awkward to use because it was tall, nowhere near as nice as the Ceros I had.

Ollie

 

[Mjward]

So many good options! think I'll struggle to make a bad choice with the options mentioned so will now just hunt for best deals/availability etc.

Unless the performance will be shocking, I wonder if I should hold off on a corner/detail sander and try my existing DeWalt Multi-tool with sanding attachment and purchase the dust extraction adaptor hooked up to whatever extraction machine I get.

Thanks again all, super useful and very kind of you to give up your time and knowledge to assist, much appreciated

 

[HOJ]

I have the Rotex 150mm 3 & 5 orbit sander, beast of a machine for sanding, but it is weighty, I also have the little Rotex 90 which is very useful with the small rotating pad and the delta head, generally leave it set up with the delta head, (plus we have a Fein that does the same, but noisy) we also have the little RTS 400, which I find is OK, but less effective and again a bit noisy, rarely have it on past its # 1 speed setting + we have 3 Festool extractors, (everything is corded) but its all plug and play for us.

I appreciate this sounds like a bragging competition, but these tools are in use pretty much day in day out, and having in the years gone by tried a lot of alternative solutions with mixed results, performance and longevity, we now have a system that really works and more to the point hasn't failed. Oh, and a little bonus on the extractors, the systainer's stack on top.

Also, the Mirka sander we tried, you had to keep the switch lever held all the time, no good for me.

 

[Sideways]

Don't overlook the Mirka dust extractor. Someday I hope to collect enough pop and beer cans to get one.

Pete

It's made by Nilfisk .... but their house colour is blue.

 

[TomGW]

I have a Metabo SXE 3150 ROS and I’m very pleased with it. Currently roughly £80. It also fits straight & securely onto the Festool MIDI vac hose and is very effective at dust capture.
I don’t have a Festool extractor but have used a friend’s and I honestly think my own Numatic wet & dry vac is just as good. I have a blue version (Charlie I think) that I bought new on an offer for £90 last year. It doesn’t have a power take off though.

 

[Distinterior]

One of the most noticeable things about the Festool extractors that I dont think anyone has mentioned ( my apologies if I missed someone's previous comment...?) is how quiet they are in comparison with other brands of extractor.

I have 4 different CT models, the oldest of which is from 2002 and its still going strong after extensive use.

 

[Alpasty]

I've recently replaced my Bosch GAS 25 that's been going strong since 2007, and is still working but a bit battered, with a Bosch GAS 35L. Very impressive, quieter, better suction and the reverse flow filter cleaning is very good.

When deciding which to buy I compared the M and L class, (and other brands). The Bosch uses the same filter in both the M and L class vacuums, but there is an upgrade in hose quality, variable suction and method of filter cleaning.

I decided on the L class as it had better reviews and once I realised the filtration was the same I didn't see the need to spend extra.

Regarding sanders, I've been very impressed with my Bosch GEX 125-150 AVE, dust control is good, especially with abranet type sanding sheets, and the vibration damping on this machine is very impressive.

I've not used a Festool sander before, but do have other Festool tools.