Yes. and no reviews to show you what actually arrives. That’s a shame. They’ve only got one of each (8inch/10inch) left, so I’ll keep an eye on it.
Rutlands tools
- Thread starter Raymien
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Woodpecker are made in America, paying decent wages and international taxes, they also do a huge amount of product design, development and promotion. The Chinese tools are complete copies with no R&D or real marketing expenses, they even use the Woodpecker photos and videos. These rip off companies do not pay or contribute the UK economy, where do the profits of these companies go after their polluting slave labour factories have stolen product IP.
billw
The Tattooed One
That’s slightly xenophobic Peter! The arguments about pollution do have to sides as well. British factories weren’t exactly clean when we were a developing nation, countries who are going through the developmental stage argue they have the same “right” to be more polluting whilst they are in the manufacturing phase and to some degree I agree.
We’ve left the EU. While we were in it I believed that people in Uk cared about environment, workers rights, international law and wanted to be global leaders. I now know the Uk is basically selfish, see themselves as the exception to every rule. So I say bring it on: Global Britain. No more sharing, cooperating, enforcing and backing up. Each for themselves.
realistically the cheap Chinese raw materials and tools have been an enabler for the Uk. They’ve created jobs and opportunities for Uk workers that wouldn’t be there otherwise.
many of those workers (eg at Rutland) are living off the Mark-up on cheap Chinese goods. Others are able to offer a service that they couldn’t offer before.
and a lot of the money comes back - Chinese students pay good money for a British education. London property is often priced for Chinese buyers - spending the money they made selling stuff to us.
this is our new global reality. Did people think we’d vote for brexit then voluntarily pay more for EU/US tools??
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The irony of a british person condemning the use of slave labour in a developing industrial economy. Or an American insisting that industrialised countries should respect international copyright and patent law.
We can’t change what they do in their country, all we can do is tax/regulate them out of our economy. Last time I ordered ‘cheap copies’ from China I paid no noticeable extra taxes. Which tells me that despite lots of froth in the media/online we don’t really care that much.
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I can't say I am proud of our history (mainly because I am not xenophobic) but to be fair they didn't understand the effects of pollution 150 years ago like we all do now.
stuartpaul
Established Member
You know exactly what Peter meant and it's rather disingenuous to throw the slave issue at him don't you think? His point is extremely valid and if the Chinese copying is allowed to continued unhindered people will simply give up development work. But clearly plenty of fans of cheap stuff on here!
shed9
establiSHED member
The idea that the development of a country was historically a messy business literally, ethically and politically does not give licence to current and future countries to do the same. That is an absurd angle to take.
It's also slightly irresponsible to suggest the only way to impact those practices is to use buying and regulatory powers.
It's also slightly irresponsible to suggest the only way to impact those practices is to use buying and regulatory powers.
billw
The Tattooed One
You don't get cheap stuff by demanding that emerging economies run everything in brand new carbon-neutral factories using renewable energy, with higher wages and strict bureaucracy to ensure quality of life for all citizens. And people want cheap stuff, so everyone has to make a personal ethical decision about their purchasing habits.
If everyone stopped buying stuff from China and told Rutlands and Axminster etc that they won't be buying any more stuff until they sourced it from elsewhere, then you'll get change. As soon as they tell you it'll be an extra 10% you'll soon see a change in attitude.
Just an aside, if Britain was an emerging economy right now, and the US was telling us our economic development had to be by a load of rules they made up because they've already gone past the point where many of them apply to themselves, how would you feel? Two fingers up westwards I bet.
AJB Temple
Finely figured
As far as possible I have entirely ceased buying things from China. It is a Communist state, adopts slave labour, oppresses minorities and has an abysmal human rights record.
Genuine question, how far has it been possible to do so, so far? Are most [complex] products not global now and would almost certainly have Chinese components in them?
exactly. Rules of Origin mean that a significant % of your ‘made in Germany’ tool could have been made in China. And that vagueness is on purpose - that’s exactly how nations, manufacturers and brands negotiate the ethical and price expectations of their customers - make it vague.
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Genuinely: how else do you impact Chinese production practices AND respect their national sovereignty? One option is to work together to exclude products made in ways we disagree from our economy. By regulation and taxation.
Neither the US or UK has offered reparations for slavery or past copyright thefts. They’ve taken the leg-up it gave them and now assume the moral high ground. well China now has an army and economy big enough for them to disagree without fear of reprisal. Uk and us have both actively participated in creating a global supply chain for all things which obscures their sources and keeps prices down.
the very existence of brands like parkside, scheppach, erbauer and evolution (and the livelihoods of all their employees) is down to these globalised supply chains and china’s unique ability to work within them.
And what’s the actual r&d that goes into a red aluminium set square or t-ruler? Does colouring them red and marketing them very well give a company the right to control all future production of red aluminium t-rulers?
I’d argue this drives creativity. If you can’t monopolise your idea forever you’ll be forced to make something new.
billw
The Tattooed One
Well apart from the first one (they're socialist, not communist - the party name is a bit outdated) I agree those things happen. The last one though, they just don't really care. "Rights" of their citizens are to live safely and with economic prosperity. We in the West want different rights, freedom, etc etc. I've been to a few major Chinese cities and whilst I found the police presence a bit overwhelming, on the other hand I wasn't going to be mugged or stabbed.
People are very quick to judge Chinese society by our standards - why are human rights more important than economic and social rights? Because we say so. Are we definitely right? No.
AJB Temple
Finely figured
Chinese Communist Party or CCP controls the other parties and if you think it is a socialist party then you are entitled to your beliefs. It operates along Leninist lines and has a well documented record of continuing to govern its population by force and oppression, including Hong Kong Chinese. If you believe the Chinese populace don't care then that is a belief that I don't share and I do not feel is substantiated. However, I am not seeking to start a political argument: more simply I decided when the Wuhan flu occurred and caused inter alia immense damage to global economies, that it was about time I stopped being accepting of the behaviour of China and now go to some trouble to avoid buying anything that is made there, especially if there is the risk of use of slave labour. One aspect of this is that tools and equipment (including IT where key component are sourced from China) must last for much longer. I don't need much. I most definitely do not buy clothes and such like made in China either.
I am also somewhat anti Amazon now, as it is very destructive to local economies and pays next to nothing in tax as its American owner gets richer by the second and UK retailers and wholesalers struggle. It's reputation for tolerating counterfeits and remunerating people for positive reviews is also not good in my opinion. If I have to pay more I will make do with less.
(This was not typed on a Chinese made computer by the way).
Kind regards
Adrian
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
Based on that view Bill where would you draw the line? Cotton picked by Uighirs who are working for free as part of a state programme (aka imprisonment) to re-educate them (aka brainwashing) to drop their religious beliefs is okay or a pair of trainers hand stitched by an eight year old in return for a daily wage of 20p?
I accept the point that judging other societies by our own way of doing things is not a good idea - human rights are quite different in my view though.
billw
The Tattooed One
Well I would say any degree of coercion in employment is unacceptable. The Uyghers situation is certainly shocking, but the Chinese view is that there should be absolute unity in their population and everyone should be "Chinese". As they keep saying, it's their matter and people should keep their nose out of internal affairs as that's the whole concept of sovereignty, which was a western concept in the first place. Not saying I agree, but I am saying I can see their point.
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
That’s the ruling elite’s view of “Chinese” that everyone should be of course. I don’t see their point but will leave it there.
Terrytpot
Established Member
Without wishing to step on any toes I thought the above was worthy of a snippet from me. My first point would be have you not noticed the change in composition of our town centres/ high streets in the last few decades or so? Our society totally embraced the US love for a "one shop does it all" approach to the retail experience in not only accepting the supermarkets but then compounding the matter by embracing their love of Malls, or as we like like to call them "Retail Parks". All of this has led to the decimation of the diversity we used to enjoy right on our doorstep, replacing choice with what provides the biggest profit margin for global corporations. The average HIgh street now seems to be not much more than estate agents,charity shops,coffee/cafe shops and a Greggs! (Please don't respond with a "but what did the romans do for us? Law and order,sewage etc" response in relation to your high streets composition). It seems to me that the majority of our nation desires what they regard as a bargain more than they want anything else (oh,and a steak slice too please). As for Mr Bezo's operation..he employs 27,500 in the UK (granted,many of them are agency personnel and may have been born behind what used to be called an iron curtain) but there are plenty of others also employed off the back of his operation (speaking as a HGV driver who has done Amazon work and who know's many others still engaged in it from other companies) so it does have positive aspects as well. Whilst I applaud the sentiment of "taking a moral stance" to what you regard as morally reprehensible , I'm cast from the "don't throw stones brigade" and as such am prepared to cut a nation a little slack. I wholeheartedly agree that there are many nations whose morals and ethics are questionable , and I include ours in that, but I don't see an easy solution to the problem other than education and as I live close to a major University and several centres of further education that seem to be almost entirely populated by citizens from the far east it would seem that that's exactly what's already happening. My two penneth.
billw
The Tattooed One
I have friends who are car designers, IT consultants and engine builders - they all have one thing in common these days - they work as Amazon delivery drivers.
I'm not even 50 yet and I think the High Street concept is dead and buried and the whole campaigning to bring it back seems as awfully old school as getting our sovereignty back.
My university has a lot of Chinese students. They're mostly female and spend their entire time in Selfridges/ Harvey Nicks and have little interest in studying hard because the simple fact of having had a British education elevates them above their peers. The universities don't care because they pay twice as much per year as UK students.
p.s. my other hobby is collecting Michelin Stars, but give me a Greggs cheese and onion bake or a Wetherspoons breakfast and I'm like a pig in ****.
I'm not even 50 yet and I think the High Street concept is dead and buried and the whole campaigning to bring it back seems as awfully old school as getting our sovereignty back.
My university has a lot of Chinese students. They're mostly female and spend their entire time in Selfridges/ Harvey Nicks and have little interest in studying hard because the simple fact of having had a British education elevates them above their peers. The universities don't care because they pay twice as much per year as UK students.
p.s. my other hobby is collecting Michelin Stars, but give me a Greggs cheese and onion bake or a Wetherspoons breakfast and I'm like a pig in ****.
