Review : Chisel and Plane Sharpening - Peter Sefton

[Peter Sefton]

Thanks for the offer but no, I really have no problem sharpening at all!
What page 4?
I agree that the burr needs taking off the face, plus a tiny bit of hone/polish both sides as per his first pic, but not second, which looks decidedly un polished.
Just having a neat bevel doesn't make a sharp chisel

Take a gander over the original post and look at page four to see the difference in the cut quality.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/chis ... 04479.html

Cheers Peter

 

[Peter Sefton]

If you look back at the original post you may notice the biggest improvement on the chisel is on it's back ...

The back???? :lol:

He means the face :lol:

These links might help you remember the parts of the chisel

http://www.veritastools.com/Products/Page.aspx?p=745

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4099/ ... ge-chisels

You must be wasting lots of your time if you are flattening the fronts of your chisels.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

Mine have a a back and a face. Flat = face, back = bevel.
So do you call the bevel side the 'front'? Never heard that being used myself.

ps I think your usage is American - so those who worship at the shrine of LV or LN pick it up from them.
UK usage more logically is flat = face (see Marples ad someone posted a bit back) but you get both.

Hope that helps.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

50 years ago at school the flat side was the back - I very much doubt anyone had heard of LV or LN then, or had a clue what an American would call it.

 

[Peter Sefton]

50 years ago at school the flat side was the back - I very much doubt anyone had heard of LV or LN then, or had a clue what an American would call it.

Agreed, thus the saying backing off the chisel the same applies to a plane blade which can have a back bevel....

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

post1195667.html?hilit=marples%20advert#p1195667

 

[nabs]

here we go again! it is pretty obvious that the reason for the continuos disagreement on terminology is that it is never been used consistently - it doesn't matter how many references are dug up, old or new, the matter will never be decided. I call the flat bit the face, except when I get muddled up and call it the back. In case that helps

 

[Just4Fun]

Can I follow up the issue of how polished relates to sharp? Specifically, does a more polished result indicate a sharper chisel?
The reason I ask is that I have tried a 3000/8000 Bearmoo sharpening stone the same as shown above, with disappointing results. I usually sharpen with wet & dry (because it is what I have, so let's not get into a debate about that) finishing on a leather strop with Autosol. The result is a polished chisel that is pretty sharp. I tried the stone to see if I could get a better result. The chisel was noticably more dull after the 8000 stone than after 2000 or 3000 wet & dry, and didn't improve much when I stropped it. It didn't feel any better in use than when I use wet & dry, and I have abandoned the stone because of this.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Can I follow up the issue of how polished relates to sharp? Specifically, does a more polished result indicate a sharper chisel?
The reason I ask is that I have tried a 3000/8000 Bearmoo sharpening stone the same as shown above, with disappointing results. I usually sharpen with wet & dry (because it is what I have, so let's not get into a debate about that) finishing on a leather strop with Autosol. The result is a polished chisel that is pretty sharp. I tried the stone to see if I could get a better result. The chisel was noticably more dull after the 8000 stone than after 2000 or 3000 wet & dry, and didn't improve much when I stropped it. It didn't feel any better in use than when I use wet & dry, and I have abandoned the stone because of this.

Perhaps 'scratch-free' or 'much smaller scratch pattern' might be a more accurate term than 'polished'; 'smooth' rather than 'shiny'; I think the word is used as a sort of shorthand.

For a really good cutting edge, you want two faces meeting at a line (the edge itsef) both faces being as free of blemishes and scratches as you can achieve. If the back of a chisel or plane iron were left with the manufacturer's grinding marks, and the bevel made as smooth as possible, the result would be a ragged edge. Similarly, if the tool were just rough honed, the edge would still be ragged, to a degree. In that state, it could well be sharp enough for rough work like heavy chiselling with a big mallet, or rough jack planing, but for finer work, something better is desirable. Hence 'polishing' out the scratch pattern from the honing stone (which does the bulk of the metal removal to re-establish the cutting edge shape and geometry during a honing session) to smooth the cutting edge. Only the very edge needs 'polishing' in this way, on both the bevel and the back, just to get as near to smoothness right at the edge as you need.

I'm not suggesting that this is the 'right' way, but what works for me is as follows. Once a bevel is established by grinding, I hone the edge on a fine India oilstone until I can feel a burr right across the back at the edge, but don't 'back off'. Then transfer to a Welsh slate stone, and holding the tool a degree or so higher than I did on the India, draw the edge back several times, lifting off on the forward stroke. That polishes the very edge on the bevel side. Then flip the tool over, place it dead flat on the slate, and draw back, repeating two or three times, with just a little finger pressure at the cutting edge end. Sometimes, I need to flip from bevel to back three or four times to break off the wire edge. That gives me edges that are shaped on the India, and refined right AT the edge on both bevel and back on the slate, without need for stropping. I can then repeat the hone-and -polish sequence several times before needing a touch on the grinder.

The same principle will work with just about any sharpening medium - a very fine wet-and-dry will substitute for a slate stone, and whatever you have that works for the India.

Sometimes there's a bit of suck-it-and-see with sharpening media. You may need to fiddle about to find a particular combination of abrasives and minor modifications of technique until you get something that works consistently for you, but the basic idea is gross removal of metal by grinding the whole bevel, then establishing an edge by honing metal away, then polishing just the very edge for maximum sharpness.

It might be worth trying the 'draw back with a little pressure, lift off to return' trick with the 8000 stone, holding the tool at a slightly higher angle than on the coarser stones. It may work, it may not; but nothing lost for the sake of a bit of experimentation.

 

[Chris152]

Thanks for the review, ScaredyCat. I have three of the other videos in Peter's series that I'm gradually working my way through - I go back to chapters that I've watched before quite often as things crop up and I realise I didn't get it first time around. I've found them to be a great help.

 

[xy mosian]

I found the Eclipse/Delta guide very difficult to set right until I followed the advice to make a simple board to use for lining up.

I used to have such a board but it was never to hand when I needed it. I think, from memory, that my guide is likely to be a Draper, used in exactly the same way. As for setting the blade protrusion, 50mm for the 25 degree angle just happens to be the width of most of my chip breakers. The 38mm for 30 degrees is marked as a scribed line through a black felt tip pen mark on the back of the chip breaker. I always need to remove the breaker for sharpening so the setting gauge is always to hand.

Good review by the way. It seems as if Peter has got the videos right, especially the close ups exactly where you would like them. I don't like it when some tutor refers to a point of detail without a really allowing close inspection.
xy

 

[Jacob]

Can I follow up the issue of how polished relates to sharp? Specifically, does a more polished result indicate a sharper chisel?
The reason I ask is that I have tried a 3000/8000 Bearmoo sharpening stone the same as shown above, with disappointing results. I usually sharpen with wet & dry (because it is what I have, so let's not get into a debate about that) finishing on a leather strop with Autosol. The result is a polished chisel that is pretty sharp. I tried the stone to see if I could get a better result. The chisel was noticably more dull after the 8000 stone than after 2000 or 3000 wet & dry, and didn't improve much when I stropped it. It didn't feel any better in use than when I use wet & dry, and I have abandoned the stone because of this.

The point of stropping is not to sharpen, but to polish the bevel and a bit of the face, to reduce friction. Depends what you are doing but it can be very noticeable - similar to candle waxing a plane sole. It feels sharper even though polish and candle wax clearly don't affect the edge itself.
It isn't part of the modern sharpening creed (where faces have to be called backs :lol: ) so it never gets a mention amongst the true believers, but is true nevertheless. That's how it often is with religions.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Stropping certainly plays a part in my sharpening routine and is covered in at least four different forms in the video. Hand stropping, hard leather block and soft leather along with timber and Autosol.
I cover how I feel it improves the cutting edge (sharpens) or just removes the wire edge and how it helps if the chisels are not flat from a poor sharpening regime or rounded stones.

Cheers Peter

 

[Peter Sefton]

I found the Eclipse/Delta guide very difficult to set right until I followed the advice to make a simple board to use for lining up.

Good review by the way. It seems as if Peter has got the videos right, especially the close ups exactly where you would like them. I don't like it when some tutor refers to a point of detail without a really allowing close inspection.
xy

I can't take credit for the high quality of the video filming work, that is down to Artisan Media who are very professional. I have tried some workshop filming work but this is very poor by Artisans standards.

We filmed the second series back in August and they are almost finished editing the first three bandsaw videos and only on the first pass of the other machines. I couldn't possibly devote that amount of time to the videos, or even know how to cut and balance them so well. But I guess thats why we all have our own professions.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

Stropping certainly plays a part in my sharpening routine and is covered in at least four different forms in the video. Hand stropping, hard leather block and soft leather along with timber and Autosol.
I cover how I feel it improves the cutting edge (sharpens) or just removes the wire edge and how it helps if the chisels are not flat from a poor sharpening regime or rounded stones.

Cheers Peter

Part of my sharpening routine too but pure stropping works by polishing, as per my post above, but the dividing line between stropping and fine abrasive sharpening isn't clear, unlike the division between say sharpening a plane blade and waxing the plane sole.

 

[xy mosian]

I can't take credit for the high quality of the video filming work, that is down to Artisan Media who are very professional. I have tried some workshop filming work but this is very poor by Artisans standards.

We filmed the second series back in August and they are almost finished editing the first three bandsaw videos and only on the first pass of the other machines. I couldn't possibly devote that amount of time to the videos, or even know how to cut and balance them so well. But I guess thats why we all have our own professions.

Cheers Peter

Or to put it another way "Each to his own trade." Good choice of company Peter!
xy

 

[bugbear]

The point of stropping is not to sharpen, but to polish the bevel and a bit of the face, to reduce friction.

Do please define "polish" and what it actually does to the metal Jacob. Simple English will be fine. Nothing airy fairy for a practical man such as yourself.

BugBear

 

[MikeG.]

The point of stropping is not to sharpen, but to polish the bevel and a bit of the face, to reduce friction.

Do please define "polish" and what it actually does to the metal Jacob. Simple English will be fine. Nothing airy fairy for a practical man such as yourself.

BugBear

Your tireless pursuit of Jacob is tiresome.

 

[woodbrains]

The point of stropping is not to sharpen, but to polish the bevel and a bit of the face, to reduce friction.

Do please define "polish" and what it actually does to the metal Jacob. Simple English will be fine. Nothing airy fairy for a practical man such as yourself.

BugBear

Your tireless pursuit of Jacob is tiresome.

Hello,

Actually it is not; Jacob's continuous tripe however, is. Clearly, stropping is sharpening. An abrasive is used to remove metal, evidenced by the black deposits (steel particles) on the strop, after a few strokes of the tool. The finer the abrasive used on the strop, the higher the polish, which will reduce friction in the tool use. It is not remotely like waxing a plane sole. But eventually Jacob will come to realise that people who sharpen to fine levels are doing it for good reasons, and it has nothing to do with modern fads. At some point Jacob will be telling us that stropping has always been part of the sharpening process, and he has always said so and the rest of us are finally 'getting it'.

Mike.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I agree with woodbrains that stropping when done with a compound is sharpening.

I am not sure how you would define stropping in your hand and if someone wishes to try and grade the abrasive effect of skin
I only use hand stropping if the wire edge is very fine, the action will fatigue the wire off by bending it back and forth, the wire edge element is often left on the palm as a thin fuse wire.

Cheers Peter