Resawing - Japanese saw options

[worker]

I don't have space for a bandsaw so my only option for resawing is to use a handsaw. What are your thoughts on these:

https://www.axminstertools.com/shokunin-japanese-ryoba-double-edged-saw-270mm-105007Tooth Pitch \ tpi Crosscut 2.54 mm \ 10 tpi Rip cut 3.9 mm - 6.0 mm \ 6.5 - 4 tpi

https://www.workshopheaven.com/gyokucho-616-ryoba-seiun-sako-300mm.htmlCrosscut pitch: 3mm / 9tpi - Progressive rip pitch: 3.5mm to 6mm/ 7 to 4.5tpi

I've been looking at Japanese saws since they require minimal time investment compared to restoring a Western saw and minimal financial investment compared to a modern quality version (e.g. from Thomas Flinn & Co.), plus you get two saws in one.

I need to resaw multiple pieces of a solid oak worktop which is 25mm to 45mm thick, ~250mm width and ~400mm height. Some pieces will be crosscut shorter first.

 

[Jacob]

I don't have space for a bandsaw so my only option for resawing is to use a handsaw. What are your thoughts on these:

https://www.axminstertools.com/shokunin-japanese-ryoba-double-edged-saw-270mm-105007Tooth Pitch \ tpi Crosscut 2.54 mm \ 10 tpi Rip cut 3.9 mm - 6.0 mm \ 6.5 - 4 tpi

https://www.workshopheaven.com/gyokucho-616-ryoba-seiun-sako-300mm.htmlCrosscut pitch: 3mm / 9tpi - Progressive rip pitch: 3.5mm to 6mm/ 7 to 4.5tpi

I've been looking at Japanese saws since they require minimal time investment compared to restoring a Western saw and minimal financial investment compared to a modern quality version (e.g. from Thomas Flinn & Co.), plus you get two saws in one.

I need to resaw multiple pieces of a solid oak worktop which is 25mm to 45mm thick, ~250mm width and ~400mm height. Some pieces will be crosscut shorter first.

Not cheap and not resharpenable. Might as well go for a western hardpoint as they are very good and much cheaper
A non hardpoint western saw much better value and last for life. Really cheap 2nd hand and "restoration" usually means sharpening and nothing else.

 

[MikeK]

If I understand your intention correctly, you want to saw your 25-45mm thick boards along the 250mm width to make them thinner boards that are 250mm wide. If so, you might struggle with any saw that is only 270-300mm long, since this will not give you a very long stroke. I would use a western saw or a frame saw. In my youth, I used both when building houses and either works great for resawing or ripping long slabs.

 

[Lorenzl]

I re sawed a ~800 x ~350 teak board and tried both a British style saw ( not a rip saw ) and a Japanese Gyokucho type one. I prefered the Japanese one as it was easier to use and cut faster. I held the board quite high in the vice and pulled down cutting from each side. It went well to start with but it was hard work.
I turned the board and started from the other end when I was about two thirds through and somehow ended up with a dish in the middle I should have left a bit more waste but I put the dished sides inside where they wouldn't be seen. I guess the saw had lost a lot of its sharpness by then.

The second attempt was easier as I had a table saw and I cut ~ 70mm deep in from each side and used a sabre style saw.

 

[Fitzroy]

Not sure I understand which dimension you are going to be sawing. Resawing to me means cutting a board thinner or into two thinner but equivalently sized boards. If that’s the case you would be sawing in the 250mm dimension.

Personally I’ve struggled to use a Japanese saw to cut in this way as the tooth gullets are small and clog with sawdust. The thin blade stock then likes to wander.

Fitz.

 

[Lorenzl]

The worst side after the board was planed.

 

[D_W]

You're looking to resaw something fairly narrow and short, so anything should work. Just give yourself room to cut accurately.

If you want to resaw bigger items, what you want is a frame saw. There are no japanese saws that are good resawing hardwood in a vise compared to a western handsaw (for stuff about 5" or less in width, or short).

I have two maebiki, by the way. they are far thicker at the toothline and wider kerf, and I have two frame saws and some really large toothed handsaws. I've tried all of it. The really large japanese saws (not disposable) are intended to be used with wet wood and either laying on their side, under foot or overhead. When they're sitting on wood in a vise under their own weight, then they're too heavy and wide. the fact that the kerf is much wider than a frame saw means you get to do a whole lot more work, and they're harsh on the hands.

So, short term, anything will do what you want. Longer term, if you want to do much resawing, plan on having an aggressive rip handsaw and making yourself a frame saw. Resawing will dull saws pretty quickly - even disposable hard tooth saws.

(it would be nice if maebiki were better for this because unlike being sold overseas, they're really cheap in japan. I paid $65 for a pristine one and $22 for another. They can be bought and sharpened for a lot less than the cost to make a frame saw, and you don't have to make them. There are youtube videos of people using them to resaw, but YT doesn't really have much with people doing a lot of something - just experimenting and then wanting to make assertions.

Frame saw cherry

Frame saw cherry 2

Same thing - 3

The resawn panels from those pictures went into a cabinet as flat panel doors. I wanted the door panels to bookmatch. They could've been resawn with a handsaw, too.

I have pictures somewhere of resawing guitar blanks - 14-16" with the same frame saw (which was supposed to be a test saw and then make a nice one later - the test saw works so well (just screwed together ash and sheet metal to hold pins that tension the blade with wedges) that I haven't even bothered to make better wedges. It's nice to be able to tension the wedges with a quick grip clamp instead of hammering them.

Just in case anyone is thinking of going down this road. I sold my bandsaw (18" saw with 12 1/4" of resaw capacity) after I made this saw because the bandsaw was not able to do really wide stuff, it took up space, and it was a $2400 level saw made now and had a problem with accuracy and blade wander.

Just for curiosity, in case anyone is wondering - the maebiki for scale before adding handles. I've had a huge array of disposable saws, and saws the style of maebiki but lighter in weight, and of course, these two. What the pictures don't convey is just how heavy maebiki are, which handicaps them if trying to use them upright - they are extremely awkward, and the teeth are aggressive for use where they're not sitting upright. It's the s__ts trying to use them in a western setting.

 

[D_W]

I re sawed a ~800 x ~350 teak board and tried both a British style saw ( not a rip saw ) and a Japanese Gyokucho type one. I prefered the Japanese one as it was easier to use and cut faster. I held the board quite high in the vice and pulled down cutting from each side. It went well to start with but it was hard work.
I turned the board and started from the other end when I was about two thirds through and somehow ended up with a dish in the middle I should have left a bit more waste but I put the dished sides inside where they wouldn't be seen. I guess the saw had lost a lot of its sharpness by then.

The second attempt was easier as I had a table saw and I cut ~ 70mm deep in from each side and used a sabre style saw.

the dip/curve is blade wander, just like it can occur with a bandsaw. A saw needs to have enough tension in the cut and the wood's tension minimized by wedging the top of the cut open so that the blade doesn't start following a confined off-line track.

it's a solvable issue.

In order to use western saws (which will ultimately be faster than japanese saws), one needs to be able to sharpen saws well and quickly, though.

 

[Jacob]

Ripping the whole 250mm is a lot for any hand saw. I've done it, but by cheating - a deep slot all round cut over a table saw. This reduces what you have to cut and guides the saw - 4tpi rip cut hand saw in this case.
I heard a rumour that pre power the same thing might be done by cutting the slot with a very narrow wooden "dado" plane. Makes sense and accounts for the narrow and deep cutting dado planes Ive got in my collection, but never used!
PS seems it's not a rumour though this is more of a saw than a plane Blackburn Tools - Rebate saw-plane parts

 

[worker]

I couldn't find a hard point with 4tpi aggressive tooth pitch so looking at Japanese alternative.

I am aware Japanese saws can't be hardened but as an occasional user I think I'll be fine.

Due to limited time to do woodworking, it's taken me ages to get to a stage where I can finally work on projects I've wanted to do for a while (building a bench took a few months!)

So spending more time trying to get a saw into working condition is a hugely unappealing idea, restoring hands planes was pita enough, and only did it because no cost effective quality alternative existed. Similarly for building a frame saw, it would be ideal but they only seem available as a kit.

I'll be sawing at angle and flipping the board so although the width is 250mm, I'll be sawing a subset of that amount in one stroke.

These are the largest pieces I'll be working on for the foreseeable future - they are left overs from an oak worktop I snagged from someone redoing their kitchen

 

[Inspector]

Nokogiri | FINE TOOLS Second saw down is the one you would want if you want to do it the Japanese way.

Pete

 

[raffo]

Does the fact that the op wants to resaw dry oak and not freshly cut timber makes no difference in the recommendations?

 

[TRITON]

What you want is one of these
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374069883004?hash=item57184d707c:g:NosAAOSwn0Bie5T4This is 4tpi, but 3tpi is the normal too.

 

[worker]

I get the recommendations for a vintage Western saw but learning to sharpen and having to buy some more tools in the process - it's just not a skill I want to learn at this time. It will become another time sink for me after spending months finding time to complete my workbench.

The Japanese saws seem like the quickest and most effective way to get resawing the pieces I have.

I am mindful of course that Japanese saws also require time and practise to get right, but I have used a couple before and am relatively comfortable with them.

Both of the Japanese saws I listed seem equally capable although I am leaning towards the 300mm one for the added capacity.

@TRITON that saw is very tempting and not too far a drive either!

@Inspector €145 and who knows what costs shipping from the EU will add, hard pass

 

[Inspector]

It was a suggestion as to what to look for. They can an be found on eBay etc at times but if you don’t want to learn to sharpen a western saw then it wouldn’t be a tool for you either.

Pete

 

[Adam W.]

I'd go for this one....

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12541381...v6QYFF%2F0e2cjLE5uzs|ampid:PL_CLK|clp:2047675

4tpi is a beast to start learning with.

 

[TRITON]

Both of the Japanese saws I listed seem equally capable although I am leaning towards the 300mm one for the added capacity.

300mm is not a lot of saw for ripping. The old styles are usually 26"-28" or 660mm-710mm in old money. Plenty enough length to get a good stroke on it.

Proper link from Adam above
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125413816403?hash=item1d333ef853:g:WDsAAOSwhvpizZiA

 

[Jarno]

I have a few ryoba's from Gyokucho, they are great (I also use western saws).
Had a look at the 270 and 300mm ryoba, but the rip teeth on those are humongous, much too coarse for the finer work I use my japanese saws for. So i have a 210 and 240 now.
If you have much thicker stock and hardwood (the japanese saws are mainly for softwoods, since that is what they typically use), a western saw might be a better choice.

 

[Adam W.]

Oh and check if it is actually measured in TPI (English) and not PPI (American). There's a difference and some people mix them up.

 

[rogxwhit]

It can be fairly easy & quick to fettle a pre-hardtooth western handsaw - especially a rip saw because the teeth are fewer and easier to see!

You need a way of holding the blade - clamp between a couple of battens in a vice, though it's easier if you can get the blade closer to your eyes so you don't have to stoop. A fine flat file to level the teeth, a triangular saw file of the appropriate size to shape and sharpen them, and finally a saw set (cheap, second hand!) to set them. Give it half an hour. You've spent that already by talking about your 'problem'.

For the set - one of those Eclipse pliers-style ones ...

And what could be easier than rip teeth?