Removing banjo fingerboard.

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Jacob

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Just bought a very nice old fretless banjo with decorative ebony fingerboard - mother of pearl dots, stars etc. Neck is bent beyond playable (steel strings, should be catgut or nylon).
Only remedy is woodwork.
Am googling away but wondered if anybody on here knows how to remove thin ebony finger board, with zero damage?
Can't straighten the neck by removing material it's very slender but could do it neatly/easily by adding a fillet to fill the dip, then to put finger board back on top.
 
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I've seen guitar luthiers do it using a steam iron but never on a fretless instrument, they then get something thin like a putty knife and prize the fretboard off the neck and go along the fretboard until it all comes off.
 
I've removed a few fretboards, pictures will help.

The basic principle is to heat the board until it is hot to soften the glue, then work thin blades along until you have separated the joint.

I'll write more once I see the patient - a picture of the whole instrument will help guess age and thus glue, side and top views of the fretboard will help too.
 
Easy with a steam iron and a damp rag two or three layers of a tshirt and a worn old thin wide paint scraper is just about right for guitars, might want to find something about the same width of the board. thinned from use and rounded corners which I guess you have already.
I like to start on the wider end of the board aiming on separating from the centreline outwards, and the corner might come loose after 10 or 12 mins or so, fairly high on the iron setting or about as hot as a three second touch will allow just about without needing to suck your thumb.
Never done an old instrument though just lots of PVA ones.
Might want to see if the instrument has value first, not encountered anything but fake inlay which stayed stuck with AMG Asian mystery glue.
The main thing is making sure no gaps are present not from removal, but from cleaning the glue off afterwards.keep away from the edges.
Made that mistake more than once.
You might want to introduce some backbow.
John Hall has a few videos but for guitars which have180 lbs of tension iirc.
Somewhere near the end of the neck series on YouTube, It might give some food for thought.
Maybe a search using MIMF in Google for some tips.musicial instrument makers forum.
 
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Hi the matter of fingerboard removal has been well covered and removal should not be a problem.
Just for information attached are images showing other methods to overcome banjo neck upsets.
One shows a fitted fingerboard that has been tapered to provide a better action. The other shows the area of the dowel stick attachment where it might be possible to trim and shim the dowel stick to increase the neck angle. Good luck with repairs.
SAM_1558.JPG
dowel stick.JPG
 
Thanks for info.
Yep everybody and google says heat and gentle leverage.
Basically all in good nick except for the bend in the neck
Photos here. You can just about see it.
Would the mother of pearl top inlays come up with the board or are they deep?
Had a look online and this looks like quite an early model, pre 1900 perhaps

IMG_3942.JPG
IMG_3943.JPG
IMG_3944.JPG
IMG_3945.JPG
IMG_3947.JPG
IMG_3949.JPG
 
Thanks for info.
Yep everybody and google says heat and gentle leverage.
Basically all in good nick except for the bend in the neck
Photos here. You can just about see it.
Would the mother of pearl top inlays come up with the board or are they deep?
Had a look online and this looks like quite an early model, pre 1900 perhaps

View attachment 111061View attachment 111062View attachment 111063View attachment 111064View attachment 111065View attachment 111066
The fingerboard markers will be glued onto the fingerboard and may come loose during heating/removal. The same situation could arise with the note position markers to the side of the neck. just keep an eye on everything as you proceed.
It looks like your proposal to add timber to the neck is the best solution. Once again good luck and keep us informed.
 
No leverage - wedging. A palette knife thinned to wafer thin to start, you can sit clothes iron in the board, and put the end of the knife inbetween the board and the iron to heat it. This can get a few mm under the corners and get things started, then switch to a slightly more rigid spatula, and work along, allowing the heat and wedging action to separate the board from the neck.

Don't be tempted to pry/lever, that way lies broken fretboards and popped inlays.
 
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Aye no prying, that's what makes the wider tool so good,
as it can be worked left and right when the glue is warmed.
A narrow thing has more tendency to dig in whilst moving left and right instead of separating both timbers.

Those popsicle marker dots look like they are going to be a lot of hassle, as well as the 5th string and nut?

Looks like the neck needs to be reset which would have contributed
greatly to the way it is now.
That's easy to do on a banjo (with a straight neck)
I'm not so sure a fillet is the best way to go about this for lots of reasons.
For one getting the board off cleanly, some folks have a steup for not needing to do that.


I think you best go to ask on the MIMF or the ANZLF or some other banjo forum,or even the OLF if you think the instrument has value.
The angle of the neck relates matters a lot,
so worth knowing a few things like what force will be applied to the skin.
I've never went studying that, just guitars, don't know anything about banjos.
 
Aye no prying, that's what makes the wider tool so good,
as it can be worked left and right when the glue is warmed.
A narrow thing has more tendency to dig in whilst moving left and right instead of separating both timbers.

Those popsicle marker dots look like they are going to be a lot of hassle, as well as the 5th string and nut?

Looks like the neck needs to be reset which would have contributed
greatly to the way it is now.
That's easy to do on a banjo (with a straight neck)
I'm not so sure a fillet is the best way to go about this for lots of reasons.
For one getting the board off cleanly, some folks have a steup for not needing to do that.


I think you best go to ask on the MIMF or the ANZLF or some other banjo forum,or even the OLF if you think the instrument has value.
The angle of the neck relates matters a lot,
so worth knowing a few things like what force will be applied to the skin.
I've never went studying that, just guitars, don't know anything about banjos.
I'll dismantle and see how far I can remedy it before doing anything drastic. Moving or remodelling the dowel post might be one way.
The fillet idea would be easy to do if the board comes off cleanly. The idea is to fill the dip with a long lath glued on and then planed flat tapering to zero at the ends. It'd add strength as the whole thing is a bit fragile. It'd be visible from the side as a glue line. I'll put nylon strings on for less tension and better fingering.
Thanks for the interesting links . Couldn't find OLF at first but I didn't join the Oromo Liberation Front!
 
Being a banjo player myself for many years. The 'bend' in the banjo arm (neck) is known as a warped neck caused over the years by the tension of the strings pulling on the arm. Your banjo is made for nylon strings--not steel strings as to much tension on the neck causing a warped arm. Your fingerboard looks very thin--so be careful there. Inlays are very thin when inlaid so trying to level the fingerboard itself will probably remove them. (Been there--done that--'got the 'T' shirt!')
My advice would be join (free) the website: Banjohangout. The worlds best website regarding banjo info--you will get answers. Go to the forum: 'Banjobuilding, Setup and repair'--you will get replies. Post your photos for advice.
Banjo dealers I know of in the UK--have a look at there websites:
www.andybanjo.com
www.eaglemusicshop.com

Hope this is helpful.
 
Being a banjo player myself for many years. The 'bend' in the banjo arm (neck) is known as a warped neck caused over the years by the tension of the strings pulling on the arm. Your banjo is made for nylon strings--not steel strings as to much tension on the neck causing a warped arm. Your fingerboard looks very thin--so be careful there. Inlays are very thin when inlaid so trying to level the fingerboard itself will probably remove them. (Been there--done that--'got the 'T' shirt!')
My advice would be join (free) the Banjo Hangout - banjo forum, lessons, videos, jukebox, and more - Banjo Hangout website. The worlds best website regarding banjo info--you will get answers. Go to the forum: 'Banjobuilding, Setup and repair'--you will get replies. Post your photos for advice.
Banjo dealers I know of in the UK--have a look at there websites:
www.andybanjo.com
www.eaglemusicshop.com

Hope this is helpful.
Thanks for that. I'm already into banjos and banjo forums. Got a Deering Goodtime. Had an Andy Banjo fretless which was very nice (nylon strings) but a bit extravagant as I never played it, so sold it on. Now missing it and thought his old wreck might be good.
This is the second old banjo I've picked up which was wrecked most likely by steel strings bending the neck
 
As said the neck angle is off anyways regardless of the warp further up the neck.
I've never went near any posts on a modern one which I reset
just needed some pairing from the heel and a maybe a bit of flossing.
Yours is probably a totally different setup to a new Tanglewood banjo.

This occurrence is rife in guitars, it's how they keep folks buying them.
Pretty much every acoustic guitar under 7 or 8 hundred, you will see this.
All need a neck reset if longevity is of concern.
There is a bit more meat to them also, especially classical's which have no truss rod a lot of the time.


Mikes link should be handier than mine, as I rarely seen banjos when I used to frequent those places.
I reckon you might find some tutorials which bend the neck back to where it was originally, be it still attached to the FB or not
If removal is the only way, then maybe some added strength like a truss rod, or carbon fiber.

You defiantly should know a few things first like what the specified height at the bridge you're projecting for.
If you are still wanting to add a fillet, then angles become important
if you're proposing on keeping the fingerboard flush the way it is now.
 
Yes, Mikegtr has it right, this banjo was designed for nylon (actually gut) strings. This is why the neck has bowed forwards. I'd guess it dates from the late 1800s, but the Banjo Hangout guys will probably be able to say more.

Even if you "straighten" the neck as you propose, it will probably continue to move if you keep steel strings on it. Plus those tuning pegs don't work at all well with steel strings.

So, a nylon or Nylgut set, from Aquila or Labella most like, is the way to go.

Fixing the bowed neck

Adding wood to fill in the bow is really not the right way to go. It changes the geometry of the neck, which will make it feel odd to play, and won't deal with further bowing. Plus it will be really hard to make the addition look like it should be there, though you might be able to work out some way to make it look right.

There are two possible fixes, both of which require the neck to be straightened first after removing the fingerboard. To straighten the neck, put spacers under the two ends and clamp the middle down to your bench. Heat the neck (using a heat gun or hair dryer) until the whole thing is hand hot, being careful to go slowly so as not to damage the finish. Leave clamped up for a few days to see how it has reacted. Repeat with different sized spacers until it is flat.

Then you have three choices:

1. Reinforcement, either with a steel strip/T section/square tube or, more sensible, a carbon fibre strip or square tube. Rout a channel down the middle, epoxy in the reinforcement, plane the surface flat, reattach the fingerboard. There is a lot of guesswork here - you want the neck to flex slightly, enough so that if you held down a string at the body and just next to the nut, there would be around a 0.1-0.2 mm gap between the middle of the string and the fingerboard. This is known as relief. A completely flat fingerboard makes clean notes difficult, because the string moves up and down most at the middle of its arc and can hit the fingerboard. Too much relief means you have to press the string down too far. At a guess something like 6mm x 9mm carbon fibre tube, inlaid so the 9mm is depth and 6mm width, might be right, but this is only a guess.

2. Add a truss rod, again routing a slot in the neck. A two-way truss rod would be best, as it allows you to bow the neck forwards and backwards, but you might not have enough neck depth for that. You'd have to rout deeper than the truss rod so you can glue a fillet of wood over the top, as that fretboard is too shallow to take upward pressure from the truss rod. If you decide to take this route I can write more. The neck will be much heavier, which changes the balance of the instrument.

3. Glue on a thicker fingerboard - the easiest way is to add, say, a 3mm board to the neck and then the existing fingerboard on top of that. This might be enough, but again it's guesswork. I'd choose mahogany for the addition, as it's lighter and also less stiff than ebony. If I had the neck in hand I might guess lighter, maybe a 2mm or 1.5 mm addition, but that would be from experience based on how the neck flexed by hand. So again, guesswork here.

Removing the fingerboard

As others have said, you simply heat it with an iron and ease it off gently. This fingerboard is almost certainly glued with Hot Hide Glue, and heat alone won't soften it, you need moisture. However, if you use a damp cloth between the iron and the wood, it's very likely that the fingerboard will curl up along its length - not good!

I would heat the board dry, with a cloth between the iron and the wood. Removing it from the hoop will make it easier. You want the wood to feel hot to the hand, but not hot enough that you can't hold a finger to it for a couple of seconds. Once the section you are working on is that hot, work thin blades under it from either side (start at one end, and I'd suggest the body end is best). The Works will sell you a pack of four or five artist's palette knives for around £5, and these work well. Dip a blade in water, work it gently under as far as you can, repeat the other side. Keep going on alternate sides until the whole fingerboard is detached. Never lever it up! Work horizontally.

Runout is the gotcha. Your palette knives might start to dive into the neck along a grain line, or up into the fingerboard. Watch out for this and correct immediately. If you go slowly and take your time, it should come off in one piece.

Also, watch out for the "pip" which holds the 5th string above the fingerboard near its peg. If this is bone or ivory, heat won't hurt it. But it might be celluloid, in which case it will melt! Remove it if you can, or be prepared to make another and fit it once the fingerboard is back on.

The inlays are probably laid into some kind of back mastic. That will soften, but should harden up again. Be careful lifting your cloth when you remove the iron, in case the mastic sticks to the cloth and pulls the inlay out. If any rise up, flatten them again before it cools.

The side dots look to me like later additions, probably plastic rod glued in with CA glue. These should stay in place OK.

Finally, once the board is off it might well have distorted. Remove glue from the underside, iron it flat, and then clamp it between two boards to keep it flat.

Good luck! This won't be a quick job to do right.
 
Thanks for that, plenty of detail there!
Yes I knew about the strings.
Straightening the neck and adding more fingerboard sound like the way - adds more material than my idea of just filling the dip
 
But then you need to think about dropping the heel.

Or simply install a taller bridge.

It all depends on the action once the neck has been dealt with. A straighter neck will lower the action, a thicker fingerboard will raise it, where that will end up is guesswork at the moment :) But adding 2mm to the fretboard only adds 2 mm to the bridge height (assuming it's right at the moment, which we can't know), that should be no problem.

I'd guess that if the action is too high or low, and fixing it isn't a simple bridge change, then Jacob will come back for more help.
 
Thanks for that. Points taken. Have got my Deering Goodtime as a reference for the geometry - neck seems to be dead straight with slight bend imposed by string tension.
 
Yes, Mikegtr has it right, this banjo was designed for nylon (actually gut) strings. This is why the neck has bowed forwards. I'd guess it dates from the late 1800s, but the Banjo Hangout guys will probably be able to say more.

Even if you "straighten" the neck as you propose, it will probably continue to move if you keep steel strings on it. Plus those tuning pegs don't work at all well with steel strings.

So, a nylon or Nylgut set, from Aquila or Labella most like, is the way to go.

Fixing the bowed neck

Adding wood to fill in the bow is really not the right way to go. It changes the geometry of the neck, which will make it feel odd to play, and won't deal with further bowing. Plus it will be really hard to make the addition look like it should be there, though you might be able to work out some way to make it look right.

There are two possible fixes, both of which require the neck to be straightened first after removing the fingerboard. To straighten the neck, put spacers under the two ends and clamp the middle down to your bench. Heat the neck (using a heat gun or hair dryer) until the whole thing is hand hot, being careful to go slowly so as not to damage the finish. Leave clamped up for a few days to see how it has reacted. Repeat with different sized spacers until it is flat.

Then you have three choices:

1. Reinforcement, either with a steel strip/T section/square tube or, more sensible, a carbon fibre strip or square tube. Rout a channel down the middle, epoxy in the reinforcement, plane the surface flat, reattach the fingerboard. There is a lot of guesswork here - you want the neck to flex slightly, enough so that if you held down a string at the body and just next to the nut, there would be around a 0.1-0.2 mm gap between the middle of the string and the fingerboard. This is known as relief. A completely flat fingerboard makes clean notes difficult, because the string moves up and down most at the middle of its arc and can hit the fingerboard. Too much relief means you have to press the string down too far. At a guess something like 6mm x 9mm carbon fibre tube, inlaid so the 9mm is depth and 6mm width, might be right, but this is only a guess.

2. Add a truss rod, again routing a slot in the neck. A two-way truss rod would be best, as it allows you to bow the neck forwards and backwards, but you might not have enough neck depth for that. You'd have to rout deeper than the truss rod so you can glue a fillet of wood over the top, as that fretboard is too shallow to take upward pressure from the truss rod. If you decide to take this route I can write more. The neck will be much heavier, which changes the balance of the instrument.

3. Glue on a thicker fingerboard - the easiest way is to add, say, a 3mm board to the neck and then the existing fingerboard on top of that. This might be enough, but again it's guesswork. I'd choose mahogany for the addition, as it's lighter and also less stiff than ebony. If I had the neck in hand I might guess lighter, maybe a 2mm or 1.5 mm addition, but that would be from experience based on how the neck flexed by hand. So again, guesswork here.

Removing the fingerboard

As others have said, you simply heat it with an iron and ease it off gently. This fingerboard is almost certainly glued with Hot Hide Glue, and heat alone won't soften it, you need moisture. However, if you use a damp cloth between the iron and the wood, it's very likely that the fingerboard will curl up along its length - not good!

I would heat the board dry, with a cloth between the iron and the wood. Removing it from the hoop will make it easier. You want the wood to feel hot to the hand, but not hot enough that you can't hold a finger to it for a couple of seconds. Once the section you are working on is that hot, work thin blades under it from either side (start at one end, and I'd suggest the body end is best). The Works will sell you a pack of four or five artist's palette knives for around £5, and these work well. Dip a blade in water, work it gently under as far as you can, repeat the other side. Keep going on alternate sides until the whole fingerboard is detached. Never lever it up! Work horizontally.

Runout is the gotcha. Your palette knives might start to dive into the neck along a grain line, or up into the fingerboard. Watch out for this and correct immediately. If you go slowly and take your time, it should come off in one piece.

Also, watch out for the "pip" which holds the 5th string above the fingerboard near its peg. If this is bone or ivory, heat won't hurt it. But it might be celluloid, in which case it will melt! Remove it if you can, or be prepared to make another and fit it once the fingerboard is back on.

The inlays are probably laid into some kind of back mastic. That will soften, but should harden up again. Be careful lifting your cloth when you remove the iron, in case the mastic sticks to the cloth and pulls the inlay out. If any rise up, flatten them again before it cools.

The side dots look to me like later additions, probably plastic rod glued in with CA glue. These should stay in place OK.

Finally, once the board is off it might well have distorted. Remove glue from the underside, iron it flat, and then clamp it between two boards to keep it flat.

Good luck! This won't be a quick job to do right.
All top advice here. There is another way that worked well for me on a 1936 arch top guitar that had no truss rod and that is to refret it with slightly bigger wire especially on the tang (the barbed bit of the T shaped fretwire). This is like adding tiny wedges along the neck that force it into a slight back bow. The string tension then pulls it to the required shape. However it takes a lot of trial and error and you need to have the correct fretting tools and a certain amount of skill. Good luck. G
 
All top advice here. There is another way that worked well for me on a 1936 arch top guitar that had no truss rod and that is to refret it with slightly bigger wire especially on the tang (the barbed bit of the T shaped fretwire). This is like adding tiny wedges along the neck that force it into a slight back bow. The string tension then pulls it to the required shape. However it takes a lot of trial and error and you need to have the correct fretting tools and a certain amount of skill. Good luck. G
Fretless.
No frets on my banjo! Sounds like the title of a song. :unsure:
Sounds a good idea though.
PS closer scrutiny of what I though was a plastic head shows bristles on the back - pig skin vellum I guess. In good condition so must be recent.
 
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