Regular Mortice Chisel or Bevel Edged for your Mortices

[bugbear]

I'm fairly confident I've read more period woodworking books than you

This forum is getting madder, it's turning into a woodworking version of Royston Vasey.

If people are making assertions about the practises of 100 years ago, it would be (ahem) optimistic looking for forumites with first hand experience!

BugBear

 

[D_W]

After spending the bulk of today prepping stock by hand, I'll take the laughs
BTW, in case you're interested, frame saw vs scrub plane isn't even a contest if you're thicknessing poplar down by a quarter inch.

Why the hell hasn't any shed guru put that in a woodworking video, that's what I want to know...


(I will say though that they're right about frame saws - compared to resawing with a ryoba or a western handsaw it's a lot easier).

How big of a piece of poplar are we talking about? A quarter is somewhere around the tipping point for where I'd get a saw out instead of doing all of the work by plane.

I can tell you from experience, the videos with bits about stock reduction don't garner much other than peanut gallery viewing. And the gurus don't do much hand dimensioning. It's painfully obvious when paul sellers does a video about squaring a piece of stock that he uses machines to do it.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

This forum is getting madder, it's turning into a woodworking version of Royston Vasey.

custard, all the threads on things like sharpening, plane use, and now the correct terminology for the flat and bevelled sides of plane irons and chisels turn into surreal versions of The League of Gentlemen. Royston Vasey seems quite sane compared. There's a good reason why I seldom have much to say in threads such as this - I basically can't be bothered with all the pointless circular bickering and point scoring. It's much more fun to watch slow train wrecks of this type as they develop ever more fractiously to the point where the thread becomes locked, ha, ha. Slainte.

 

[D_W]

From this point on, when we refer to the back of anything, we can use the term "Jacob's face". Maybe that will allay any confusion.

Perhaps a picture is helpful.

https://nl.dreamstime.com/stock-foto-wi ... ge14820840

In terms of actually solving the communication problem regarding chisel orientation and technique for mortises, I think all hope is lost.

 

[MarkDennehy]

How big of a piece of poplar are we talking about? A quarter is somewhere around the tipping point for where I'd get a saw out instead of doing all of the work by plane.

Small. two 6x17 boards and three 5x15 boards. It's just for a wall cabinet build. I'm just old and slow

I can tell you from experience, the videos with bits about stock reduction don't garner much other than peanut gallery viewing. And the gurus don't do much hand dimensioning. It's painfully obvious when paul sellers does a video about squaring a piece of stock that he uses machines to do it.

Honestly, if I could find a lunchbox thicknesser with an induction motor, I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
Thicknessing is a job I just cannot stand doing.
Hell, if I could get a bandsaw that would fit in the shed and resaw boards nine inches wide or so, I'd do that too (unfortunately I am utterly out of floor space now)
I mean, you know how they did this in the 17th century in the heyday of hand tool work, right?
They didn't.
They cheated like a mother-pineapple.
They bought in stock in the thicknesses they wanted from the mill and they didn't resaw by hand, according to The jointer and cabinetmaker. They just got on with making furniture they could sell. Can't blame them either, I mean I can see the value in flattening a board by hand because a #5 and a #8 are cheaper than a 14" jointer; but thicknessing? Thicknessing can go jump in the sea.

 

[Jacob]

......
So the old ways are the only ways and there's only ever one way to skin a cat, yes?

......
Or should I now be chopping every motice on my fine, delicate woodwork witha hoofing great mortise chisel a-la the Mister Ford method?.......

Do what you like - I use a morticing machine myself.
But if you want to know how to use a trad mortice chisel then it could be useful to refer back to the days when the tradition was strong.

Of course, we could also have a back face... :lol:

Does he have a front face as well?
As I say - there is some confusion! I'll stick to flat = face, bevel = back.

What's he supposed to be showing anyway? I guess it'd make a tiny bit of sense if he was cutting a bridle joint - but you'd do that with a saw not a chisel. Another would-be guru trotting out some old cobblers? :lol:

 

[MikeG.]

........I'll put up with a lot, but being called Jacob is just going too far!

:lol:

Oops! I was in a rush. I wasn't thinking. I shall flagellate myself within an inch of my life, and swear never to do it again. I think the youth of today have an expression about a brain-fart, but of course, I'd never use that.

 

[Jacob]

........I'll put up with a lot, but being called Jacob is just going too far!

:lol:

Oops! I was in a rush. I wasn't thinking. I shall flagellate myself within an inch of my life, and swear never to do it again. I think the youth of today have an expression about a brain-fart, but of course, I'd never use that.

Whatever else you do - just don't call me custard! :lol:

 

[MarkDennehy]

would-be amateur woodwork gurus in sheds with video cameras

Another would-be guru trotting out some old cobblers? :lol:

I know it's funny, but in all seriousness Jacob, do you not get that one day (hopefully far removed from today), you're going to die?

No, hear me out. Custard, a few others of you out there, this applies to you too.

You're going to die. We all are, it's the lot of mortal man, etc, etc.
Which means all that knowledge you won the hard way is going to be lost.
And all we'll be left with may well be amateurs in sheds with video cameras.

Thing is, this youtube lark ain't hard. Most phones these days can do it. Or tablets - big clive has all his electronics videos done on an ipad for years. And the knowledge he won the hard way won't be lost.

So unless you're in the middle of writing a book ... maybe you should do a video or two. Show amateurs how a professional does this stuff. Sure, not a Frank Klauz level of production with all the fancy lighting and stuff, but honestly, for people who are looking to actually learn as opposed to being entertained, that stuff doesn't matter quite so much. Watching a few decade-old videos of Peter Follansbee carving oak with cruddy lighting and grainy footage taught me a damn sight more than any of the more flash "youtube personalities" (and yes, there are many, even I can predict what a few of them will have in next week's video based on what Richard Maguire or Paul Sellers released this week in their pay-to-view video sections).

So seriously, pick the thing you think you know better than anyone else and film it for three minutes and see how easy it is to do. And save some of that knowledge from being lost.

 

[ED65]

I'm fairly confident I've read more period woodworking books than you

This forum is getting madder, it's turning into a woodworking version of Royston Vasey.

If people are making assertions about the practises of 100 years ago, it would be (ahem) optimistic looking for forumites with first hand experience!

BugBear

Thanks for quoting that, wouldn't have seen it otherwise. Don't get the reference, but it's not like I care at this point.

 

[G S Haydon]

Of course, we could also have a back face... :lol:

Very illustrative. When letting in ironmongery I work with the bevel down with the chisel set at about 45 degrees and then lightly chop. I only work vertically when squaring up the ends. It is much harder to strike a chisel through when faced vertically. When working on a door lining or frame, striking a chisel at 90 degrees to a surface will often create bounce back where the frame or lining is not perfectly mounted. Lower it to roughly 45 and it's much easier going.

Similar point with the morticing. Some cuts need to be done with the chisel not riding the bevel, but ideally when there is relief and only when needed.

Books and "gurus" can be very useful ways of finding this stuff out, but with so much variation it is best to make some joints and find out the benefits of the different methods.

And on chisel types, "heavy duty" bevel edge chisels work fine, but that kind of clarity is unlikely to earn you magical guru status :lol:

 

[Jacob]

.....
I know it's funny, but in all seriousness Jacob, do you not get that one day (hopefully far removed from today), you're going to die?.......

Not me squire. My wife has cupboards full of remedies!!

 

[bugbear]

Very illustrative. When letting in ironmongery I work with the bevel down with the chisel set at about 45 degrees and then lightly chop. I only work vertically when squaring up the ends. It is much harder to strike a chisel through when faced vertically. When working on a door lining or frame, striking a chisel at 90 degrees to a surface will often create bounce back where the frame or lining is not perfectly mounted. Lower it to roughly 45 and it's much easier going.

Similar point with the morticing. Some cuts need to be done with the chisel not riding the bevel, but ideally when there is relief and only when needed.

I found a similar thing when chopping out a recess in the case for mounting a sharpening stone - 45 degree cuts were very much easier than vertical. In practise I very soon discovered the "right" spacing to the chips were (just...) self freeing.

BugBear

 

[nabs]

I'm surprised there has not been more comment on MarkDennehy's important post. First of all it turns out we are all going to die and then - to cap it all - our only consolation seems to be the prospect of Jacob doing a youtube of himself energetically cutting a mortice.

And he hasn't even promised to do the video yet.

Happy Christmas one and all!

 

[woodbrains]

.....
I know it's funny, but in all seriousness Jacob, do you not get that one day (hopefully far removed from today), you're going to die?.......

Not me squire. My wife has cupboards full of remedies!!

Hello,

Are you sure they are 'remedies', Jacob? :?

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

NB the vertical morticing cut is only for morticing on a solid bench, "over the leg" as they all say, to minimise bounce. Or on a saw horse with you sitting astride it.
Another of its advantages of course is that it doesn't need clamping or working against stops - all the force is perpendicular to the bench. Vices or clamps leave marks if you use a lot of force. Having the workpiece sitting flat on the bench but without restraints, avoids this.
Don't worry about it if you don't get it - just have a go next time you use a trad mortice chisel. You may just see the point. :lol:
There is a purpose made morticing stool in Ellis - you do it between your thighs - if you tilted the chisel you'd risk a very nasty cut! :shock:

 

[bugbear]

There is a purpose made morticing stool in Ellis

Oh, well found! That's very interesting.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Morticing stool - scroll down. Note vertical chisel hold and BFO mallet!!

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/478

 

[ED65]

Books and "gurus" can be very useful ways of finding this stuff out, but with so much variation it is best to make some joints and find out the benefits of the different methods.

+1 And then pick the method you like the most. A few things are like hand-cut dovetails, with the entrenched pins-first or tails-first camps both clearly achieving good results in a timely manner. Since there isn't a clear winner in terms of results or efficiency the route that makes the most sense or 'feels right' to each person is the method you should go with.

 

[Jacob]

....A few things are like hand-cut dovetails, with the entrenched pins-first or tails-first camps both clearly achieving good results in a timely manner. Since there isn't a clear winner in terms of results or efficiency the route that makes the most sense or 'feels right' to each person is the method you should go with.

There is a clear winner on the DT front if you look at old work; it was (almost) always pinholes (tails) first.
This is because it's much quicker to clamp two drawer sides together and cut the pinholes in one (usually freehand) but then the pins would be marked and cut separately. If you pull and old drawer apart you can almost always match the two sides and their pin holes. Lots of variations of course, but it's about the only way to speeding the process up - cutting two sets of pin holes as one op.