Record DX5000 - Too Powerful?

[Harbo]

Because of its powerful suck with both motors running, I have always used two bags (one inside the other). But the other day I noticed that the wire cage underneath had been badly bent inwards. I thought at the time I might have damaged it as it is quite heavy when full of shavings. I hammered out the damage and reinstalled it.
Today I checked it out again and the cage has sucked in just like before.

Anybody had this problem? It's guaranteed for 5 years and I think I have had it about 3 so I will be in touch with Record.

Rod

 

[Harbo]

Here's a picture of the damage:

Now temporarily reinforced with a timber strut?

Rod

 

[paulm]

Blimey Rod, what have you been doing :shock: :lol:

I have an interceptor metal dustbin before my metal can version of yours and if I get the end of the hose stuck against the floor or other surface then the dustbin will crumple inwards like that.

Not sure if something similar was happening when using yours ?

Not sure what the answer is either rather than trying not to let the end of the hose seal against flat surfaces ?

Cheers, Paul

 

[Mike.C]

Here's a picture of the damage:

Now temporarily reinforced with a timber strut?

Rod

Bleeding eck there is something seriously wrong somewhere :shock: How long after you started using two bags did the damage happen? If it was almost immediately, and so the bags are at fault (which I cannot really see how) then I would remove this thread before I contacted Record, because if they see it they may say that it is user damage and refuse to help you.

On the other hand I would be amazed if it was found that the suction was strong enough to cause that sort of damage.

Is there any chance that it received a bang unknown to you, which damaged and so weakened the bottom ring? Because that maybe the reason the suction can pull it in on itself.

I hope that you get it sorted.

Cheers

Mike

 

[matt]

I'd hazard a guess that if you were using a single bag then it would have split before the damage occurred.

 

[ondablade]

I'd imagine Rod that your problem may be caused by either a badly blinded filter bag (probably most likely), or maybe by the extra restriction to air flow of the second bag (but maybe less likely provided both are clean) - or both.

Look at it this way. While the filter is freely flowing air then there will be very little pressure drop inside the bag. As it blinds up you get less and less airflow, but the pressure drop/suction increases.

I hadn't thought a dust system could generate that sort of pressure drop, and don't know anything about those Record units - but i think some makes these days are using fans that shift quite a bit less air volume (for a given HP) but give a bigger pressure drop (more suck) to allow use of smaller duct sizes. On the other hand the 12 or so inches of water gauge suction that standard fans get up to is actually not that far off 1/3 psi.

The numbers get interesting, in that very small pressure drops can work up to very large forces when applied to surfaces.

One square foot is 12in x 12in which is 144 sq in. One square yard is 3 x 3 which is 9 sq ft - which is 9 x 144 or 1296 sq in. Meaning that the very moderate pressure of 1/2 psi applied to one side of that sq yd will generate a force of about 650lbs. Which will crush lots of things.

The classic schoolroom demo of this is to stack a big pile of encyclopaedias on top of a plastic bag, and then blow into the bag. The smallest puff lifts the books and the whole stack falls over....

 

[Noel]

Blimey Rod, what have you been doing :shock: :lol:

I have an interceptor metal dustbin before my metal can version of yours and if I get the end of the hose stuck against the floor or other surface then the dustbin will crumple inwards like that.

Not sure if something similar was happening when using yours ?

Not sure what the answer is either rather than trying not to let the end of the hose seal against flat surfaces ?

Cheers, Paul

Paul, any chance of a picture of your arrangement?
Sorry for going a little OT.

 

[paulm]

Paul, any chance of a picture of your arrangement?
Sorry for going a little OT.

As luck would have it Noel I've just locked up the workshop for the evening before I came online and saw your post !

It's quite a simple setup though so I'll describe it here (hope Rod doesn't mind the slight diversion :lol: ), and if still not clear I'll take a pic tomorrow.

You basically just utilise one of these on top of a dustbin. A short length of hose connects to your dust extractor (just a half or metre length), and the other port connects your main hose through to the appliance the extraction is from.

The dustbin allows the heavy chips and shavings to fall to the bottom of the dustbin and mainly the finer dust passes through to the actual extractor. The main benefit for me is that the dustbin collects a much larger volume of shavings than the extractor can hold, and is much easier to empty. A bit of soft hosepipe or similar around the top of the dustbin allows the interceptor lid to seat firmly with the suction from the extractor and aids efficiency.

Not as high tech or as efficient as a cyclone, but a very practical way to increase capacity and ease of use, bearing in mind that the closed can type extractors can have a significant proportion of the volume of the can ( typically 1/3 to 1/2) taken up with the motors and filters and therefore fill up very quickly with any volume of shavings.

Hope that make sense ?

Ondablade, the sacks used with Rod's type of extractor are plastic sacks rather than cloth filter sacks which I think you were maybe assuming ?

Cheers, Paul

 

[Harbo]

I always clean out the filter bag every time I empty it and give it a good "bashing" to shake out any dust.
The bag sucks-in even under one motor power - I think the cage is designed to keep it extended.
The single bag split the first time I used it when new - a new bag sits inside the old which so far has prevented more splits.
I thought at first I may have damaged it but that side is protected by a wooden strut so impossible to happen that side?
I used it today with its wooden separator in place and so far so good?
Reading the instructions again it states that the pressure (suction) can be controlled by adjusting the holes in the inlet pipe. A bit difficult when you are feeding wood through a P/T and when working on sycamore which produces long curly shavings full suction is required to prevent blocking up?
I suppose what it needs is an automatic safety valve?

Paul - I have one of those lids but could not get a good seal on the dustbin I used - I will try again?

Found the receipt - bought it exactly 4 years ago - how time flies?

Rod

Here's a link showing some photos/Review from 2003:

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/Tools/Record-DX5000-Wall-Mounted-Dust-Extractor.html

 

[Noel]

Paul, any chance of a picture of your arrangement?
Sorry for going a little OT.

As luck would have it Noel I've just locked up the workshop for the evening before I came online and saw your post !

It's quite a simple setup though so I'll describe it here (hope Rod doesn't mind the slight diversion :lol: ), and if still not clear I'll take a pic tomorrow.

You basically just utilise one of these on top of a dustbin. A short length of hose connects to your dust extractor (just a half or metre length), and the other port connects your main hose through to the appliance the extraction is from.

The dustbin allows the heavy chips and shavings to fall to the bottom of the dustbin and mainly the finer dust passes through to the actual extractor. The main benefit for me is that the dustbin collects a much larger volume of shavings than the extractor can hold, and is much easier to empty. A bit of soft hosepipe or similar around the top of the dustbin allows the interceptor lid to seat firmly with the suction from the extractor and aids efficiency.

Not as high tech or as efficient as a cyclone, but a very practical way to increase capacity and ease of use, bearing in mind that the closed can type extractors can have a significant proportion of the volume of the can ( typically 1/3 to 1/2) taken up with the motors and filters and therefore fill up very quickly with any volume of shavings.

Hope that make sense ?

Ondablade, the sacks used with Rod's type of extractor are plastic sacks rather than cloth filter sacks which I think you were maybe assuming ?

Cheers, Paul

Hi Paul, thanks for that. I'm familiar on the workings of the set-up but was just interested in exactly how you have yours arranged.
Certainly if you take a picture I would be grateful.
My DX 5000 is piped in so really just looking for options with regard to the location of the bin.

 

[studders]

The bag sucks-in even under one motor power - I think the cage is designed to keep it extended.

I'm probably missing something here but...... shouldn't it do the opposite?

 

[Harbo]

Studders - yes you are.

The plastic bags act as collectors - the air is extracted via a cloth bag then paper filters through vents in the lid.
The Camvacs work in a similar way.

http://www.recordpower-thetoolshop....h_Filter_Dust_Extractor_with_Twin_Motors.html

Rod

 

[studders]

Ah right gotcha. The extraction is 'at the top' as it were, not in the middle as in my extractor?
Hmmmm? Well it would seem more air is being expelled than is being taken in. Are there any partial blockages in the pipes? Is the Sycamore building up in the pipe causing a pressure build up that is too much for the cage?

 

[moz]

I've used one of these for years with one bag. The only time I burst one of them is when I forget to open a gate and don't get to the off switch quickly enough :roll: . I can reduce down to 50mm with both motors going without breaking it though the bag does stretch a bit at that! I find this extractor gets clogged up around the inlet pipe very easily with stringy timbers like sycamore and maple and it seems to me that this is what has happened, with two strong bags having the strength to bend the frame. There is a pressure relief kit (DX100PR) for regulation of the airflow to prevent bags tearing but I've never found the need. I don't know what bags you are using but I use Axminster's.

John

 

[Harbo]

Yes the problem has only occurred when working with sycamore.

My extractor came with something similar to the pressure relief kit fitted at the bin end. The trouble is that it is a long way from the work and I suppose the damage can be already done before any adjustments are carried out?
I will have to keep my wireless on/off switch at the ready!
What would be nice is some sort ot automatic pressure relief valve - something similar to a pressure cooker?

Rod

 

[SVB]

Without wishing to hijack the post, I have a bin extender lid that I don't use - available to anyone prepared to collect!

S

 

[Recky33]

A friend of mine has this extractor and he cant use it with both motors running when using only a 50mm hose as the bag implodes instantly, even with the pressure relief fully open

Allan

 

[woodturningbeekeeper]

Found this thread really interesting. I have a Record DX5000 and I have a similar problem with the plastic, single bag getting sucked up. I bought it from a school so it had had little use. It was to be my main workshop extractor but due the mentioned problem it has been regulated to small appliances, bobbins sander and the like (one at a time). I have been in touch with Record, the first attempt was at a Record show in a local store. The rep suggested I move the hose to uncover the hole in the housing where the hose is fitted (no joy) The machine appears to be fitted with a regulator of some sort (picture attached). I mentioned the regular to him, I was just told 'it's nothing to do with us'. 2nd time I got told about the regular, couldn't find it on the website though. There is a short length tube on mine, can anyone tell me where you fit the tube. :roll:

 

[woodturningbeekeeper]

Hi Simon what's a bin extender lid? :duno:

 

[SVB]

Hi Simon what's a bin extender lid? :duno:

Essentially a bin lid with 2 x 4" sockets moulded in, an in and an out. Put it in line (mounted onto a normal metal / plastic waste bin) and all the shavings and big stuff stays in the bin and only the fine stuff goes into extractor bag. Just makes it easier to empty plus don't go through as many bags plus also some defence against sucking up screws etc that can damage extractor filters and impellers etc.

S