Ramped shooting boards - do they really work better?

[Jacob]

I wouldn't use an iron with any camber on a shooting board. It would seem to me to negate any benefit of the board in the first place.

Camber no prob - you tilt the blade to suit the cut.

I assume there must be a point or purpose to ramped boards or no one would make them.

It doesn't follow.

They've been around for a long time.

So has homeopathy

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Certainly the camber isn't a problem - but it's even less so if it's non existent. I did say "I assume" not just "there must be".

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I wonder how many of you guys have actually used any of these shooting boards, and especially used them side-by-side with a variety of planes? Or is this just armchair speculation?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[MusicMan]

Derek, I am glad (and relieved!) that you agree. No need to throw away your LN skews . And you are the only person I have seen who has actually done the comparison, which is what I was looking for, since I have not done them myself.

For those who aren't getting the various geometries and who still think that a ramped board gives a skew cut, this diagram may help:

As for those who think I should spend my time making furniture rather than jigs, that's my choice. I think I am better at making jigs and tools, as it draws on my professional training and experience. And hopefully may be of use to others here.

 

[Steve Maskery]

That's a good image MM.

I've not made a ramped shooting board, so I don't know if they are better or not. If they are, it's nothing to do with producing a skew cut, they don't, the workpiece is still "hit" square on, the blade faces the same direction as the plane is moving, it's just that the workpiece tilted downhill, so the cut begins at a corner.

Tilting the workpiece, which is what a ramped board does, is not the same as skewing the blade. And it is easy to prove.

Say you start by skewing the plane by 5 degrees. The plane is still moving forwards and very slightly sideways. Skew a bit more and it's going even more sideways. Skew to 90 degrees and the edge is acting like a knife rather than a plane, and go beyond 90 degrees and the blade is actually moving backwards and not cutting at all.

Now turn the workpiece by 5 deg, then 10 then 45 then 90, then 120... It makes no difference, all that changes is the point at which the plane makes first contact with the workpiece. Imagine that the workpiece was a dowel. it would make no difference whatsoever, except the direction over which it passes the endgrain.

There may well be other advantages to using a ramped board, but to make a skew cut isn't one of them. It doesn't.

 

[SammyQ]

A normal angled and skewed planes on a conventional flat board cut predominantly on their lower (RH?) edges of their blades. A ramped board, depending obviously on thickness of wood worked and angle of ramp used, spreads the wood contact/cutting action more equably across the blade; arguably, the blade could stay sharp for longer? Just thinkin'....

I use a hefty 5½ or a ski-sized Stanley Bedrock, so the gravitas (mass) - once it's going - makes life easier. Oi fink his Worshipfulness, the Charlesworth, uses a 5½ too an' that's where I got this trick. Big hefty fella, big hefty plane. Simples.

Sam

 

[ED65]

EDIT: I think it's better that I delete the original post as my diagram is only inclined to be misleading.

Suffice to say, MusicMan's diagrams describe the situation correctly, mine did not.

If someone did want a shooting board that gives a skewed cut that is easy enough to arrange, you just build a sled that tilts the plane 20° or so and you're in business.

 

[Jacob]

.....
I use a hefty 5½ or a ski-sized Stanley Bedrock, so the gravitas (mass) - once it's going - makes life easier....

Couldn't possibly. More weight means more force to get it going and more force to stop it, let alone all the sundry lifting and other manouevres.
It's an odd delusion - anybody doing a lot of planing knows that lighter is easier.

 

[Steve Maskery]

That diagram is incorrect. The top one is skewed the lower one is not. I refer to my previous explanation.

 

[ED65]

Couldn't possibly. More weight means more force to get it going and more force to stop it, let alone all the sundry lifting and other manouevres.
It's an odd delusion - anybody doing a lot of planing knows that lighter is easier.

Why do you think the plane of choice for shooting was a jack or larger, and not a coffin smoother Jacob?

Heavier planes "power through the cut" better than lighter planes, with respect every heavy plane should know this already.

 

[ED65]

That diagram is incorrect. The top one is skewed the lower one is not. I refer to my previous explanation.

Thanks, I looked at it again and realised my error so I've deleted it so as not to confuse anyone.

 

[MusicMan]

ED65, regarding your comment about a sled to hold the plane at say 20 degrees and carry it in a horizontal direction on an ordinary shooting board, indeed that gives a skew cut and was what I was suggesting in my original post. It might be worth doing - has anyone tried it?

Jacob, no need to say that you don't need it, we know that you can and prefer to do it with a freshly-knapped flint axe!



Keith

 

[bugbear]

They do have the advantage that the wear is spread over a region of blade so one is more likely to be using a sharp edge.

I think this is their chief advantage, although an inconsequential one for anyone who believes in the mantra of little and often when it comes to honing.

It seems a little sad, if the (e.g.) centre section of an otherwise sharp blade has been blunted on a shooting board, to re-sharpen the full width of the blade, most of which is still good, sharp and useable. It's a waste of time and steel, regardless of the sharpening process used.

BugBear

 

[Tom K]

Ramped shooting board works by simulating a skew cut your sawing of a turkey doesn't. Bugbear will be along soon to explain it can't be a skew cut because there is no skew angle to do the equation he doesn't understand wood doesn't do maths.

Neither does a falling cannon ball, but the law of gravity still applies.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
-- Neil deGrasse Tyson



BugBear

It's not the law BugBear its just a theoretical idea of the way something works subject to constant revision. When scientists happen upon something else that shows (Mostly) they were almost but not quite right and occasionally wrong. The science quote borders on delusional listening to scientific opinion is like clothes shopping with a bunch of housewives.

 

[SammyQ]

"Couldn't possibly. More weight means more force to get it going and more force to stop it, let alone all the sundry lifting and other manouevres.
It's an odd delusion - anybody doing a lot of planing knows that lighter is easier."

Jacob, you are a professional, I am a weekend warrior, so our experiences vary. For the relatively small amount of end-grain planing I do for drawers and suchlike, moving the avoirdupois of my two heavy planes is not a chore. For someone earning their bread by daily use, then "Yes" I can see that a lighter plane would be less tiring day-in-day-out, though I wonder are you generalising here to include, say, No4's on a flat surface too? I was restricting my observations to one aspect of planing, not 'helicopter vision' of it all. Moreover, I try to machine to within very few plane strokes of finished dimension, so I don't have much timber to remove by hand to finish. Ergo, not much effort.

As to generating force, I weigh somewhere north of 220 pounds and am an ex-second row forward, I cycle and climb mountains for recreation...believe me please, overcoming inertia and providing braking restraint for a moveable object is not a problem.

What I have also found with my cast iron larger power tools (and to a lesser, but similar, extent here) is that larger mass tools are more predictable and run/can be used with less wobble or deflection. Obviously, there are limits, but my weightier hand tools 'sit' better in use and I have more faith in them to cut the lines I intended than I would have in their lighter compatriots.

Sam

 

[ED65]

ED65, regarding your comment about a sled to hold the plane at say 20 degrees and carry it in a horizontal direction on an ordinary shooting board, indeed that gives a skew cut and was what I was suggesting in my original post. It might be worth doing - has anyone tried it?

I've not seen one that I recall. I'd say there's a good chance it hasn't been done frequently, if at all (a quick Google around doesn't show anything). It's interesting to speculate about why that is, that people would prefer to buy a skewed-iron plane, or make one of their own, rather than build a comparatively simple appliance that would allow them to use a plane they already owned and would do the same job! Nowt to queer as folk I guess.

BTW wanted to say thanks for starting this thread, if it hadn't been for the discussion here I would still have been labouring under the misapprehension that there was a skew involved.

 

[ED65]

It seems a little sad, if the (e.g.) centre section of an otherwise sharp blade has been blunted on a shooting board, to re-sharpen the full width of the blade, most of which is still good, sharp and useable. It's a waste of time and steel, regardless of the sharpening process used.

Very related to the recent discussion on how long plane irons last. I do sort of agree in my heart, but in my head I know that the amount of steel wasted is so small only a right Scrooge should be worried about it

 

[MusicMan]

ED65, thanks for the thanks. I have to admit that I thought a skew cut was involved with a ramped board, until I really started thinking about it. Thanks to all for bringing their thoughts and experience.

 

[Tom K]

ED65, regarding your comment about a sled to hold the plane at say 20 degrees and carry it in a horizontal direction on an ordinary shooting board, indeed that gives a skew cut and was what I was suggesting in my original post. It might be worth doing - has anyone tried it?

I've not seen one that I recall. I'd say there's a good chance it hasn't been done frequently, if at all (a quick Google around doesn't show anything). It's interesting to speculate about why that is, that people would prefer to buy a skewed-iron plane, or make one of their own, rather than build a comparatively simple appliance that would allow them to use a plane they already owned and would do the same job! Nowt to queer as folk I guess.

BTW wanted to say thanks for starting this thread, if it hadn't been for the discussion here I would still have been labouring under the misapprehension that there was a skew involved.

Ah that's where the confusion arises it was never a skew cut it simulates a skew cut. If you do a drawing of a plane cutting a board skew and then one of the board ramped using the same angles then overlay them they match (you do of course need to rotate them) so the blade intersects the grain at the same angle.
The idea of the against side (everyone but me) is that keeping the direction of energy aligned to the grain creates the skew cut, my thought is that it is only required to maintain the angle and the ramp on a ramped board does that for you.

 

[Jacob]

They do have the advantage that the wear is spread over a region of blade so one is more likely to be using a sharp edge.

I think this is their chief advantage, although an inconsequential one for anyone who believes in the mantra of little and often when it comes to honing.

It seems a little sad, if the (e.g.) centre section of an otherwise sharp blade has been blunted on a shooting board, to re-sharpen the full width of the blade, most of which is still good, sharp and useable. It's a waste of time and steel, regardless of the sharpening process used.

BugBear

If it really was an issue it'd be simpler to pack up the workpiece - or have a lower slide for the plane, with packing pieces. But it isn't - it's just more fantasy woodwork!
if a ramped shooting board had any meaningful degree of incline then you'd get spelching out on the bottom edge, in addition to ditto at the end.
I made a shooting board years ago but after about 15 years I realised I'd never used it, so recycled it instead.
There's a lot of this in woodwork - where "good ideas" get kicked around forever, even though they aren't that good in reality