Question for Mike about saws and their handle's

[Anonymous]

Hello Mike
Can you please explain a little about how saws were put ogether in the factorys years ago, specifically fitting handle to blade??
I have stripped down, cleaned, reassembled, set and re-sharpened perhaps 2 1/2 dozen saws. Even on saws of the same make and era I've noticed that the holes never seem to match up from one saw to another (near impossible to swap handles), which suggests they were sort of "hand assembled" as one offs?? Were the holes drilled or punched into the metal and then it used as a guide to drill the wood (as per your sequence) or was the wood drilled first, blade inserted into correct position and then the blade hols punched or drilled through the existing wood holes using THEM as a guide?? Or was there another way?? I am just curious :lol: Cheers Mr Spanton

 

[MikeW]

Hi Mr Spanton,

Hmm. Hopefully my guess is as good as another person's--but...

As far as I remember, holes were punched following the hardening/tempering. I suspect a patern such as I use was placed on the blade, the holes marked, punched and then when the handle got fit, those holes for that blade were transfered to the handle. Punching "freehand" is prone to variation as one cannot see when the punch is truly centered over a mark.

But...there have been some chads left in saw handles of some makers which suggests the blade was punched in place. Another option is that the punch wasn't clean and the chad "stuck" to the saw blade and came loose when fitting the bolts.

The way I do it is to fit the handle to a blade, transfer marks from a pattern, center punch those marks and drill through the handle and blade at once using carbide drill bits. I use a 3/32" for the first pilot hole, remove the handle, use two successively larger carbide bits to get to the proper size for our bolts in the blade.

The handle is then drilled out using an 1/8" drill bit. The pilot holes guide this slight step up in diameter. The, one of 3 aircraft piloted counterbores drill the bolthead recesses on both sides, then the bolt holes are drilled to size, then on the side which receives the bolt head [we also do them for left-handed saws] gets drilled to 1/4" down about 2/3 of the way to the blade kerf.

This 1/4" hole is then squared up to allow the squared off portion under the bolt head to fit. This is how we keep the bolts from turning.

Ok. Even using a pattern to initially mark the holes, we sometimes move one or more a little from the pattern if say we have chamfered the cheeks a little heavier on a given saw. This way we can sort of keep a similar reveal, distance, from the edge of the heads to the edge of the handle.

When we do that, this handle will only fit that blade. When we make pairs of saws, sometimes we get so close that the handles are truly interchangeable, but in most circumstance it would take filing the steel open a little to fit one or more of the bolts.

More than you ever wanted to know, I'm sure :lol:

Take care, Mike

 

[engineer one]

i would have thought that the holes would have been punched in the
metal using some kind of fly press in the early days,, and since initially
those could only punch one hole at a time, that would cause the errors.

later i am sure they made double or treble presses, and clamped the
blade in a jig on the press, but it would only take a few seconds to do
the whole job, so it is unlikely that there was too much care taken,
whatever we like think these days. remember the workers were on
piece rate, so the number of blades at the end of the day was more
important than the precision.

punching would have been more simple in the early days since it
was possible to create a great deal of pressure with a relatively
short spin of the fly on the press. drilling before the introduction
of precision bits was to say the least hit and miss, where as punching
did not require very skilled labour, hence keeping the costs down
in manufacture.

i would also guess that they pulled the handle after heating the blade
a little to allow it to bite in, otherwise i wonder whether they used a kind
of offset dowel to pull them in tight to fit.

paul :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your replys gentlemen

Its something I often pondered whilst tinkering and fettling blades and handels!
I wonder if Henry Diston himself would have used cnc machinery etc in his factory what sort of website would he have had??
I reckon a hand finished tool just IS better than a identikit one at the end of the day.

Ps Mike what sort of blade is that one you cut the kerf with? :shock: I bet they cost a buck or 2

 

[MikeW]

Paul,

Rarely did the blades fit the slots that well. Early on they were cut with a bandsaw using one which cut the about the same width kerf as the blade. Once the cover-tops arrived, Disston used a 7" circular blade. With these, the blades were die cut to fit the slot very well.

But the holes are still variable...

Mr. S...

Disston would have embraced the CNC et al. My understanding is he was the first business to bring in bandsaws from France. A lot of his machinery was purpose built. He was an innovator, especially in automation.

I use small circular blades using a vertical mill for the saws using .025" or less steel. Over that, I have made up bandsaw blades for each of the other sizes and freehand cut them against the saw's fence to layout lines taken from the shaped blade.

Take care, Mike

Take care, Mike

 

[Racers]

Hi,

I have a Marples back saw that’s about 30 years old, I thought about replacing the handle because its a rip saw that I use for dovetails and the angle is not right for me. So I undid the screws and tried to pull the handle off but it wouldn't come I tried taping it with a mallet and still no joy so I looked at it closely and found big burs round each hole, so it must have been drilled while in the handle. I gave up at this point but I still want to make a new handle I need to pluck up courage to smash it off.

pete

 

[engineer one]

why not cut round the blade with a coping saw, and split the handle in half?????
:lol: :twisted:



paul :wink:

 

[Evergreen]

Pete

I've just had exactly the same problem with my backsaw which was also made about 35 years ago. My first problem was the medallion screw wouldn't shift but following a tip from Colin, I applied heat with a soldering iron and got it to unscrew. Then, with all the screws removed, the blade still wouldn't budge. In the end, I sawed the handle off with a coping saw and found the holes in the blade had strong burrs round them standing 2-3mm proud which had effectively locked into the wood. The burrs were so well formed they looked like collars but they must have been a by-product of the boring or punching process. There was no way that handle was ever going to come off in one piece!

Now I've got my only back saw in pieces so I better get a move on and make that new handle!

Regards.

 

[Racers]

Hi,

I will have to do that, but I was hoping not to destroy it. I suppose I am going to keep it so it won’t matter, but several of my chisels etc and two different names on them so should I be thinking I am just looking them for the next owner. Maybe I should stamp my own name on them?.


pete

 

[Evergreen]

Pete

I've always liked to have the name of a previous craftsman on any old tools that I acquire. Can't be precise about why, it just feels better. Of course, there's also family pride in having my Grandad's name on some tools that I inherited from him. I've never thought of putting my own name on my tools because for me, woodworking is a hobby. It wouldn't seem right to imitate those who had to keep their tools safe as best they could, in order to make a living. But it's a personal choice.

One thing is certain, the handle of your saw is never going to be the same once you get it off!

Regards.