Putty advice for sash windows

[wobblycogs]

Sorry, I know this is a bit of a stretch for woodworking but it is sort of woodwork adjacent...

I've been restoring the sash windows in our place, they were in a terrible condition and I've ended up having to replace the glass (as well as dismantle and reassemble the sash, sigh). These aren't my first window restorations, previously I've used putty (Hodgson Multipurpose) for glazing. It's fine, it gets the job done but it seems to take forever before it's ready to paint and I want to get the window back in sooner rather than later. They claim 2 to 4 days for skinning by my experience is more like 2 to 4 weeks.

Looking around I've come across Timbaglaze, I guess it's a silicone with a filler. Does anyone have any experience of this? What I want is something that sets hard like putty, is paintable, and will last at least twenty years. Thanks.

 

[Thingybob]

I negated the need for putty by making new frames with a shape of the putty made in the wood then beaded from the inside no putty in sight and much safer from intruders , if you don't already know modern glass is usually 4mm as opposed to 3mm old glass so watch out for the window frame dropping back down when opened due to 33% extra weight

 

[Jacob]

Just have to be patient with putty and wait for it to skin over. As a bonus you can leave it quite a long time before it must be painted.
In the end it's the cheapest, easiest to apply, longest lasting, easiest to maintain/repair.
Good idea to prime new work with stopping in rebates, on remedial work to apply linseed oil.
You can still buy 3mm horticultural glass which is often rippled and more like old glass.

 

[wobblycogs]

The additional weight is a bit of a concern. Some of the glass I removed was only 2mm, I guess it was original. It was exceedingly fragile and broke as soon as I looked at it too strongly. I think I should be ok on the weights. At some point I think someone has changed the weights as they were far too heavy for the window that was in there. I've got a load of lead saved up anyway if I need to add some additional weight.

 

[Bradshaw Joinery]

set the new glass in using a ms polymer adhesive, repaircare dryseal mp is the best, bed the glass on that, knife round the sightline with a brand new normal stanley knife gently, then clean the squeeze off once its set (next day) the glass is then completely fixed into the sash you con fit it etc, then putty it when your all done.

 

[TRITON]

Linseed putty has always been the traditional putty for windows. And if it aint broke, dont fix it.
My experience of anything silicon is it just doesnt last. It unsticks itself and in many cases(bathrooms/kitchens peels away.

No probs trying new products, but i dont think anyone wants to revisit the job down the line to try to remove it for a refresh. Linseed on the other hand is so tried and tested there arent going to be problems in the future

I admit to knowing nothing about glazing. But arent the panes first secured with little pins that hold the glass in tight, and the putty put over the top of that which both holds it in and seals it all the way around ?

 

[Doug71]

I've never really got on with using the timberglaze type stuff for pointing, I do use it sometimes but find it really hard to get a neat finish, it's just so sticky. I do use it (or similar) for bedding the glass in though as Olly describes above.

Hodgsons do a rapid set putty which does skin over and harden quicker than the multipurpose stuff. It seems like normal putty but comes with a little bag of white powder and no instructions.....

To get normal putty to set quicker I find the sashes are best stood outside in the fresh air, always seems to take longer if they are just kept in the workshop.

 

[wobblycogs]

Thanks Olly, that's a great idea. Once the glass is fixed in place I can pretty much do what I want with the window.

I'll see if I can get some photos tomorrow as the woodwork on these windows is amazingly delicate. I don't know what you'd call it but the bit of timber on the outside of the glazing bar that separates the panes of glass is maybe 2.5mm. I've made a few sashes and I thought I was pushing it with 5mm.

They had a great idea where the two glazing bars met in the middle of the window too. They bored a hole into the end of the sash bar and fitted a dowel of some tough wood (maybe box). I messed about with making something like a lap joint.

As for pins holding the glazing in, yes, but I don't think it'll work here. As mentioned the timber is exceedingly thin. Most of the glass I removed had no signs of pins. I completely agree with linseed putty being the tried and tested option though.

I'll try setting the up outside to skin. I've always just stuck them up a corner of the workshop.

 

[Diver Fred]

Use Glazing Tape then bead the outside. I've stopped using putty now for some years after the last windows I gazed with putty had birds pecking the putty away for the Linseed Oil content - even after the frames had been painted.
2mm tape should be thick enough, attach to the sash light only. Press the bead against the glass and pin in place. As with putty paint just onto the glass to seal the join external and internal.

Edit :- use of Glazing Tape is better with coated glazing as using the tape you do not have to clean the bedding material off the coated surface afterwards when you can and do damage the coating.

 

[johnnyb]

Can I recommend toupret brand glazing putty. It's basically modified linseed oil putty. Easy to use, white, paint in a few days, doesn't stink to bad and doesn't crack and doesnt smear. £9 a pot from the dulux centre. I reckon those water based heritage sealants are fine for double glazing but not that easy to use and not traditional for resto work.(not cheap either.)

 

[johnnyb]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...AQFnoECA4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3DbKKSuHcptbkBKqgK6mrc

 

[Ollie78]

Hybrid polymer sealant.
Hodgesons heritage putty, Timbaglaze etc.
Dryseal may be technically the best but it is just stupidly expensive, the patent ran out hence the new formula and the flooding of the market with hybrid polymers a few years ago. Stixall is actually a very similar compound to the original Dryseal from repair care and pretty cheap It smells the same as the old dryseal.

Timbaglaze is thinner/ runnier than Hodgesons or Dryseal, it is fine but the thicker ones are slightly easier to tool nicely. Can`t go wrong with Hodgesons heritage. I do know one manufacturer who has been using Stixall for years.
You will need a gun geared for thick sealants like a Tajima or a Cox powerflow.

I use a Palu tooling block. ( as supplied by repair care for use with Dryseal in a different colour )
https://www.wholesaleglasscompany.co.uk/shop/silicone-smoothing-spatula-number-568.html

 

[Jacob]

..

I admit to knowing nothing about glazing. But arent the panes first secured with little pins that hold the glass in tight, and the putty put over the top of that which both holds it in and seals it all the way around ?

Glazing sprigs are just for temporary use to hold glass in place if necessary whilst the putty goes off. Then should be taken out and made good with a dab more putty.
With small panes you don't need them at all. Bigger panes or windy/warm weather, then yes.
Leaving them in place is a common mistake, then if the glass is stressed any cracks are likely to be started by a sprig.
Putty goes off faster and is easier to clean off the glass if you give it a quick fine spray of water straight after finishing.
Putty can be thixotropic and soften if warm and manipulated. I found this out on windows close to a steep hill, where warm weather and vibrations from passing HGVs caused new putty to slump away. Cromford hill for those who know the place.
Soften cold or old putty by popping it in a microwave for 15 seconds or so.

 

[Bingy man]

Linseed putty has always been the traditional putty for windows. And if it aint broke, dont fix it.
My experience of anything silicon is it just doesnt last. It unsticks itself and in many cases(bathrooms/kitchens peels away.

No probs trying new products, but i dont think anyone wants to revisit the job down the line to try to remove it for a refresh. Linseed on the other hand is so tried and tested there arent going to be problems in the future

I admit to knowing nothing about glazing. But arent the panes first secured with little pins that hold the glass in tight, and the putty put over the top of that which both holds it in and seals it all the way around ?

I was taught years ago to apply a thin bead of softened putty to the to the inside of the frame then secure with small panel pins to hold glass while the putty went off , then the external side of the frame was sealed using the same softened putty was used to complete the install . It was a challenge for me to get the angle right so the putty didn’t sit above the frame when viewed from inside- oh the joys of old school glazing

 

[Jacob]

I was taught years ago to apply a thin bead of softened putty to the to the inside of the frame then secure with small panel pins to hold glass while the putty went off , then the external side of the frame was sealed using the same softened putty was used to complete the install . It was a challenge for me to get the angle right so the putty didn’t sit above the frame when viewed from inside- oh the joys of old school glazing

Not to forget to take the pins out before the final bead, though if necessary they can be left in, protruding, to be removed and made good later.
Panel pins not good - proper glazing sprigs easier to tap in and pull out without breaking the glass.
Glazing easier done on the bench back at the workshop.
https://www.diydirect.com/glazing-sprigs-15mm-250-pack-approx-550-pieces

 

[Chubber]

Wot Triton said...

https://www.raygrahams.com/products/100275-15mm-blued-glazing-sprigs-50g.aspx

 

[Bingy man]

Not to forget to take the pins out before the final bead, though if necessary they can be left in, protruding, to be removed and made good later.
Panel pins not good - proper glazing sprigs easier to tap in and pull out without breaking the glass.
Glazing easier done on the bench back at the workshop.
https://www.diydirect.com/glazing-sprigs-15mm-250-pack-approx-550-pieces

I was never told that and funnily enough every pane i changed still had the pins in place from the original glazers. It was a new build estate at the time . A lot of glass was 6mm Georgian wired but it was the same with the 4mm plain glass ..but your point about removing the pins makes sense.

 

[Diver Fred]

I was never told that and funnily enough every pane i changed still had the pins in place from the original glazers. It was a new build estate at the time . A lot of glass was 6mm Georgian wired but it was the same with the 4mm plain glass ..but your point about removing the pins makes sense.

Neither was my father taught or told to remove the pins before final putty up. He always used pins, as did his apprentice (and the apprentices apprentice). My dad knew about glazing sprigs but never used them. In fact in the training chain the only person who used sprigs was the last one and that is because the (Council) COW insisted on inspecting before final Putty Up and the use sprigs was contractual. And the COW did not want the sprigs removing.

Glazing only cracks where the pin or sprig is because the metal is NOT flat to the glass.

 

[Jacob]

Neither was my father taught or told to remove the pins before final putty up. He always used pins, as did his apprentice (and the apprentices apprentice). My dad knew about glazing sprigs but never used them. In fact in the training chain the only person who used sprigs was the last one and that is because the (Council) COW insisted on inspecting before final Putty Up and the use sprigs was contractual. And the COW did not want the sprigs removing.

Glazing only cracks where the pin or sprig is because the metal is NOT flat to the glass.

Left in they can fail by rust getting at them and causing cracks in the putty.
Also being a tight fit any shock to the glass can start a crack next to the pin.
Also they are bugger to extract if trying to take out a piece of glass, especially if rusted in.
If nailed in too tight they can start a crack at any time.
I did a lot of repair/restoration, mostly sashes, as well as new stuff and found these things out for myself - firstly by noticing that original old work never ever had pins or sprigs left in.
PS but of course you can leave them in and safe a few minutes on the job, and you might get away with it!

 

[GuitardoctorW7]

Sorry, I know this is a bit of a stretch for woodworking but it is sort of woodwork adjacent...

I've been restoring the sash windows in our place, they were in a terrible condition and I've ended up having to replace the glass (as well as dismantle and reassemble the sash, sigh). These aren't my first window restorations, previously I've used putty (Hodgson Multipurpose) for glazing. It's fine, it gets the job done but it seems to take forever before it's ready to paint and I want to get the window back in sooner rather than later. They claim 2 to 4 days for skinning by my experience is more like 2 to 4 weeks.

Looking around I've come across Timbaglaze, I guess it's a silicone with a filler. Does anyone have any experience of this? What I want is something that sets hard like putty, is paintable, and will last at least twenty years. Thanks.

This guy seems to know his stuff..... wish all P&D's were this good.
https://x.com/TheOfficialGRB/status/1816148342801305744