So to you the dying of Ukrainian people is a principle thing ? You dont want that war to end, just keep going till the death toll is in the millions.
Putin is a loser
- Thread starter Jake
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This. It's the Ukrainians war ultimately, not ours. They are defending their sovereignty, unsurpisingly. Nobody would be saying "oh let's call it off and try and save lives" if the Russians were invading central Europe.
I also don't think the Ukrainians will be forced into anything if the Americans pull their support, because I suspect European countries mostly won't pull their support (I guess I could be plenty wrong about that lol).
As for the Russians being wonderful militarily, they clearly are not. I've not looked at anything on this for months, but best part of a year ago I saw a report talking about how, with numbers quantifying it, they were using up 2nd and 3rd line materiel that had been sitting in storage like Jake says. Been a meat grinder for them. I guess this sort of reporting could be pro-western propaganda (yes, I believe we in the west do that too), but I don't believe the Russian military has moved along since cold war days like other major militaries.
I have always thought that the war in Ukraine was a mistake that would ultimately be the end of Putin.
If he wants to keep throwing men into the grinder then yes he can do that, but at what cost?
He would have to drop his "special military operation" nonsense and call it what it is, and introduce much broader call up. I don't suppose that will go down well at home. Afghanistan all over again potentially.
We will see.
If he wants to keep throwing men into the grinder then yes he can do that, but at what cost?
He would have to drop his "special military operation" nonsense and call it what it is, and introduce much broader call up. I don't suppose that will go down well at home. Afghanistan all over again potentially.
We will see.
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
A strange thread, full of strange assertions and regurgitated propaganda.
Russia is weak. Russia is evil. Putin is weak. Putin is evil. That's all you need to know, because "They" told me it is true.
Does anyone here actually know why this war started? What are the reasons for it, what the Russians demands, what will satisfy Russia? Or even when it started? Why it started? Who is at fault?
Anyone?
Russia is weak. Russia is evil. Putin is weak. Putin is evil. That's all you need to know, because "They" told me it is true.
Does anyone here actually know why this war started? What are the reasons for it, what the Russians demands, what will satisfy Russia? Or even when it started? Why it started? Who is at fault?
Anyone?
Putin is evil. That seems a reasonable conclusion given all he has been up to over the years.
Killing his opponents, either by sending teams out to eliminate them, Salisbury etc, or by virtue of people becoming strangely accident prone once they have crossed him.
If you feel otherwise perhaps you could explain why?
As to the war. Putin believes that the break up of the Soviet Union was disastrous, he has often said this. Not unreasonable to infer that he would like to rectify that. So Ukraine the latest step in trying to rebuild the old empire?
Ukraine also has significant natural resources, so this may also be a factor.
Ukraine a sovereign nation, so it's invasion by Russia just wrong, and completely unjustified by any rational measure.
Again if you feel that is unreasonable then why?
As to Russian demands, I don't see that Russia has any right to demand anything.
Giving in to Russian demands is appeasement pure and simple.
And IMO it is important to consider that this is about the vanity of one man. I suspect if he dropped dead tomorrow the war would end very rapidly.
Killing his opponents, either by sending teams out to eliminate them, Salisbury etc, or by virtue of people becoming strangely accident prone once they have crossed him.
If you feel otherwise perhaps you could explain why?
As to the war. Putin believes that the break up of the Soviet Union was disastrous, he has often said this. Not unreasonable to infer that he would like to rectify that. So Ukraine the latest step in trying to rebuild the old empire?
Ukraine also has significant natural resources, so this may also be a factor.
Ukraine a sovereign nation, so it's invasion by Russia just wrong, and completely unjustified by any rational measure.
Again if you feel that is unreasonable then why?
As to Russian demands, I don't see that Russia has any right to demand anything.
Giving in to Russian demands is appeasement pure and simple.
And IMO it is important to consider that this is about the vanity of one man. I suspect if he dropped dead tomorrow the war would end very rapidly.
Trainee neophyte
Established Member
So no, you don't know why Russia invaded. Putin just woke up one day feeling peevish, and launched the flying monkeys. It's as good a reason as any, I suppose. And why let reality get in the way of a good narrative? Putin is evil, and that's all you need to know.
There are reasons for the invasion, but they involve the West being its usual reprehensible, violent, psychopathic self.
The Russians view this war as existential. It's why they keep getting all these volunteers. Does anyone know the history of Kursk, and why it was therefore a truly insane place to invade with German tanks a second time if you want the Russians to come to an agreement? It's almost as if someone doesn't want the war to end...but I digress.
Back to the important questions: Why did Russia resort to a military incursion when they obviously weren't ready? What do they hope to gain? What are the minimum goals they will accept? This information is publicly available (unless you are blocked from accessing various parts of the Internet for your safety and comfort, that is).
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From my observations over the last 40 years, I'd say that when the USSR broke up and those states formed their own independence, Russia had appeared weaker to the world. They were not ony weak but fallible and had lost their credibility as a world power.
Then they went through Perestroika. the restructuring process where the cleverer Russians made big money but the people didn't like that and it frightened them. They seemed happier with the status quo they had. It seemed that being under a dictatorship suited them more than new freedoms. The did get a McDonalds in Moscow, I remember. And they had Beryozka shops were only foreigners could buy luxury goods and booze. They were set up up attract as much foreign currency as they could. Russian currency didn't really have any exchange value when I was there.
Having visited the USSR during the change, I saw how poor people could be. How they were controlled and how the KGB watched everything and everyone. I stayed in Murmansk and saw their docks and their nuclear subs rotting on the sea wall. I saw the military men, no women, in uniform constantly in motion throughout the port. Most of them carrying a single rose for the loved ones they were leaving or just coming back to. They looked cold, blank.
I think Putin wanted the break-away states back and set out to gain power and start the process. He's been successful so far but not without costs. The last estimate I saw estiated the Russian losses in the Ukraine 'action' at 700,000. I know the families of those who died are bitter but dare say nothing ot anyone, even the people in their own comunities. He's got it made.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
If you've not watched it, this is an eye opener -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0d3hwl1/russia-19851999-traumazone
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p0d3hwl1/russia-19851999-traumazone
Blackswanwood
Still Learning
I agree and it’s confirmed by his “essay” on the history of Russia which paints a picture of Ukraine’s “rightful position” being subservient to Russia.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
BBC. Can't be true...
selectortone
Still waking up not dead in the morning
Military and civilian deaths there in WWII are conservatively estimated at 27 million. In Russia life is cheap - and certainly no great concern to Putin.
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