Professional domestic kitchen lighting help/advice needed please

[AES]

Hullo all.

As per the header I'd appreciate some advice please.

In about 2007 we had the kitchen "done". That included fitting an Electrolux Model EFC 9810.1 model Cooker Hood. The attached .pdf shows a good general idea of the layout (but excluding the through side wall ducting sketched there - ours exhausts direct through a hole in the back wall above the actual cooker plates).

The hood is also fitted with 2 x lamps under the hood near the rear wall, and these are each fitted with "G4" Quartz Halogen bulbs also marked 12V, 20 Watts Max.

The lamp holders are shown below, with their (plastic?) protective lenses removed, but together with the bulbs fitted. Also shown is a spare bulb to show the size and format of the bulb itself.

As you can see the space available in the lamp holders is VERY limited, and with the bulbs fitted the lenses only just clip onto the lamp holders with very little air all around the bulb. And once installed in the cooker hood, as far as I can see there is almost no airflow around the complete lamp assemblies either.

When first installed, the QH bulbs were marked 20 watts, and not entirely unexpectedly, the whole area around the lamp assemblies got VERY hot indeed. Consequently I refitted the lamps with the same "G4" QH bulbs, but now rated at 10 watts.

SWMBO is reasonably happy with the reduced light output over the cooker plates themselves, but over time the lenses have slowly obscured - I guess resulting from still pretty high temperatures inside the lamp assemblies.

So my question is - can I replace these "G4" QH bulbs with LED bulbs of VERY similar overall size, and if so, is there a manufacturer name/type number, etc, please.

Please note that as I live is Switzerland I'm not looking for a specific supplier name (unless I have to buy on line) as I am assuming that in general all modern electrical fittings, bulbs, etc, etc, are pretty much standardised internationally and are therefore obtainable just about anywhere. But I must say I have looked for this size of LED in a couple of local DIY stores and not seen anything likely to fit.

So any help from kitchen and/or electrical professionals will be much appreciated, TIA.

 

[Dee J]

Rather than replacing the bulbs, I'd be tempted to investigate led puck lights and led downlights to find something that would replace the whole fitting.

 

[flying haggis]

G4 leds are available. here are some from one of our stores
https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-g4-capsule-led-light-bulb-180lm-1-8w-12v-4-pack/744fh

 

[Homers double]

You can change them for LED quite easily, but you’ll need to bear in mind that the LED lamps will need a specific driver ( transformer).
I partly dismantled our cooker hood and wired the driver in then connected the LED lamps and all was good.
you should be able to purchase the lamps easily enough online, I got mine from Howdens, I’d recently installed a Howdens kitchen for a client and they had led lights that came with the kitchen. When I checked the measurements they were exactly the same as mine at home so I ordered some and they fitted perfectly.
I’m sure you find something similar in Switzerland.

 

[Distinterior]

As Homer's Double said, you MAY need to change the existing transformer for an LED Driver if you swop the G4 halogen lamps for equivalent G4 LED's.

I say "MAY", ....because I've done this swop on at least 4 or 5 different brands of kitchen extractor hood and some work fine with the existing transformer and others do require the changeover to an LED Driver. It depends on the brand of G4 LED that you manage to source.....

 

[Peterm1000]

I don't know if this link will work, but this is what I just used to replace about 20 G4 bulbs in exactly the kind of fitting you have. If it doesn't search "Sebson G4 2.5W LED" on Amazon. There's very restricted space in those holders so the capsule light linked to above almost definitely won't fit. These don't dim and I had no issue with my existing transformers which are about a decade old.

If you want dimmable, then you will almost definitely have to change the whole fitting.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00O6FMS64/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[AES]

Rather than replacing the bulbs, I'd be tempted to investigate led puck lights and led downlights to find something that would replace the whole fitting.

Thanks for that Dee J. I was rather "half expecting" (but hoping I was wrong) your answer.

 

[AES]

G4 leds are available. here are some from one of our stores
https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-g4-capsule-led-light-bulb-180lm-1-8w-12v-4-pack/744fh

Thanks for that too flying haggis. Excuse my ignorance but does the "G4" refer to the overall size/dimensions of the complete bulb "package"? The reason I ask is because to my eyes, the overall length of the bulb shown on you link looks just a wee bit longer.

 

[AES]

As Homer's Double said, you MAY need to change the existing transformer for an LED Driver if you swop the G4 halogen lamps for equivalent G4 LED's.

I say "MAY", ....because I've done this swop on at least 4 or 5 different brands of kitchen extractor hood and some work fine with the existing transformer and others do require the changeover to an LED Driver. It depends on the brand of G4 LED that you manage to source.....

Ahhh! it's getting complicated (as I thought it might). I can see a fairly big black plastic box min the back of the hood which I presume is the transformer (the installation hand book has no circuit diagram) BUT the control panel on the front of the hood not only turns the 2 lamps on but also controls the extractor fan speed (3 speed). I GUESS that black box has those fan speed controls in it as well, so is it OK to just try a G4 LED and "see if it works"? In other words will it wreck the black box if the transformer is NOT happy driving G4 LEDs?

And where/from whom do I get a LED driver if this doesn't work. After 10+ years, I bet NOT from Electrolux????????,

 

[AES]

I don't know if this link will work, but this is what I just used to replace about 20 G4 bulbs in exactly the kind of fitting you have. If it doesn't search "Sebson G4 2.5W LED" on Amazon. There's very restricted space in those holders so the capsule light linked to above almost definitely won't fit. These don't dim and I had no issue with my existing transformers which are about a decade old.

If you want dimmable, then you will almost definitely have to change the whole fitting.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00O6FMS64/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks for that too Peterm1000. (Really helpful bunch here, thanks to all). Yup, the Amazon link worked fine thanks, and no dimmable is not required (DON'T mention it to SWMBO please, or else she'll think it's a good idea)!! Anyhow my hood (& therefore transformer) is also about 10+ years old. So I might just chance it.

Now I've only got to find a supplier here (NO, even though there is no Amazon Switzerland, neither Amazon UK nor US will supply to Switzerland - sometimes they send me to Amazon Germany, sometimes they just say no. Don't bother to ask, I don't have any answers)!

 

[flying haggis]

a generic driver should do the trick. I used one like this to power a metre of led strip under a kitchen unit. you might have to do a bit of rewiring to supply the two bulb holders from the output side and the input from the light switch. it also might complicate things if the on/off switch switches 12v or 230v . I would just try a couple of G4 led bulbs and you might be ok

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254046877476?var=553393804868

 

[flying haggis]

Thanks for that too flying haggis. Excuse my ignorance but does the "G4" refer to the overall size/dimensions of the complete bulb "package"? The reason I ask is because to my eyes, the overall length of the bulb shown on you link looks just a wee bit longer.

I think the G4 refers to the spacing between the pins. what are the dimensions of the bulb you have removed?

these say they are suitable for ac/dc and although they are dimmable if you are just switching on or off they should work (and he says he posts to europe !)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373552439851?hash=item56f975e22b:g:5b8AAOSwaz9gcA3I

 

[Peterm1000]

I think the G4 refers to the spacing between the pins. what are the dimensions of the bulb you have removed?

these say they are suitable for ac/dc and although they are dimmable if you are just switching on or off they should work (and he says he posts to europe !)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/373552439851?hash=item56f975e22b:g:5b8AAOSwaz9gcA3I

Correct. But 100% certain those bulbs won't fit those fittings.

 

[Distinterior]

I would suggest you get your G4 LED's first and try them to see if they will work with the existing transformer.....If not, then look to source an LED driver.

Generally, the transformer is located separate from the switch/ speed control in domestic extractor hoods.

From memory, the last pair of G4 LED's I fitted to a cooker hood were Philip's branded and they work fine with the existing transformer.

 

[AES]

OK, thanks, "get a couple & try" is more or less the decision I've come to.

Thanks also for the above info about the G4 "size" too gents (above). As already noted, the little lamp holders are really are VERY tight for space with the existing G4 QH bulbs so I'm gonna have to be very careful.

Make take a while but I will report back.

 

[Spectric]

All you need to remember is that an LED is a constant current device and requires a Dc supply. Halogen G4 bulbs were 12 volt and so replacement G4 LED bulbs are compatable and will have the required interface to run from Ac, look at this one Energizer 2.2W G4 Capsule LED - 20W Replacement - 200lm - 3000K

or G4 LED Bulbs - LEDBulbs.co.uk

 

[Mal-110]

Have a look at this website Bedazzled Protected LED Lights 10-30v ideal for 12V 24v environments, really good information and excellent service. I have used them for about 6 years, give them a call and they will help out.

 

[AES]

Have a look at this website Bedazzled Protected LED Lights 10-30v ideal for 12V 24v environments, really good information and excellent service. I have used them for about 6 years, give them a call and they will help out.

Good selection there, thanks. AND it makes clear that "G4" only refers to the pins, as someone has said above. That was something I didn't know, so thanks. It "looks" like there is something there that would fit, must do some more checking.

Again, very many thanks to all. I will report back when finally sorted.

 

[Mal-110]

Bedazzled sell the G4 fitting on a side mount that is the size of an old penny. The brighter the light then the more LEDs need to be fitted but they sell them in several diameters. I have fitted their bulbs in several housings just like yours. They don't look like regular bulbs but they work well.

 

[Sandyn]

There should be no problem swapping for an LED bulb. Remember the LEDs produce very little heat, so you should be able to 'manipulate' it into the space.
You can get little bulb holders as well which might make fitting easier. Here is what I use:-

Bulbs
Holders

These bulbs are only 1.2W, equivalent to 10W, so you might want to get a higher output. Note also LEDs are available in different colour temperatures. 3000K up to 6500K the 6500K bulbs are called 'daylight', very white light and sometimes not comfortable to work under, the lower colour temperatures give a warmer light, which may suit a kitchen better.
Possible issues: the old incandescent bulbs will have been supplied with 12V AC generated by either a traditional transformer or an electronic transformer. A traditional transformer is a lump of metal on a bracket. An electronic transformer will be in a plastic enclosure . The traditional transformer should work OK, however some electronic transformers need a minimum load to operate correctly and often the LED bulb will be below the minimum load. This is easy to overcome by adding some appropriately rated resistor to the circuit. The best way is to try it and see.
LED bulbs have a basic regulator inside operating at high frequency, so they can cause horrendous mains conducted and radiated noise.

A bit for information: The LEDs I use (above) are designed for 12V ac, but since they have a full wave rectifier on the input, they will operate with 12V DC and not polarity sensitive. There may be a slight drop in light output with DC.

LED fittings can be either constant current driven or constant voltage. It depends on the design. The basic LED device requires a constant current, but that is easily achieved by using a series resistor and feeding the circuit with a constant voltage. High output white LED's drop about 3V across them when running, and about 1.2A (approx),