Problems cutting squarely

[Wend]

Hi folks,

Today I tried cutting one of the legs for my bench square. I made a knife wall around all 4 sides (which happily joined up more or less dead on!), and used a chisel to remove a bit of wood leading up to it on the waste side. However, while one side (the top I think) ended up being cut pretty much where I wanted, the cut drifted away down the sides and was this completely out at the bottom, as shown by these photos (which were actually taken after a little end grain planing, but I don't think much had changed yet):

I thought that this wall would prevent tearout while planing the end grain, but apparently not!:

Looks like I'm off by about a millimeter:

I'm still finding end grain planing hard work - a lot harder than regular planing - so I'd like to minimise the amount I need to do; otherwise I might give in and let the disc sander do the hard work! As the leg is still a few cm too long, I think I'll try to cut it off again, past the torn-out bit, and see if I can get it squarer. But I'm wondering if a different tool would be easier for a beginner to cut squarely with.

I was using the (finer-toothed side) of a https://www.workshopheaven.com/gyokucho ... 180mm.html to do it. I also have a https://www.workshopheaven.com/gyokucho ... 180mm.html so, looking at the descriptions again, perhaps that would be a better choice?

But I wonder if a western saw would be easier? I chose the Japanese saws as I don't need to sharpen them when newly-bought (the bench project is already a side track, so I'd like to not get further sidetracked into learning to sharpen saws at this point), and I thought that the pull action would be easier for a beginner.

So, am I likely to be best off with the 291, 293, or do there exist western saws that will be easier to use out of the box?

Many thanks for any advice!

 

[Orraloon]

I think sawing square just takes practice. I have never used japanese saws but I reckon a longer bladed weapon would have done a better job. Saws that size are for fine work and that is a large lump of wood. My dovetail saw is 250mm in the blade. A longer stroke helps me keep the line better. A half decent hardpoint panel saw (like Bacho) would do an acceptable job as the knife walls would prevent tearout. Anyhow the end of a leg will not be seen. As to planing end grain a very sharp blade and a fine setting. If the blade can't shave hairs off your arm it aint sharp enough. A block plane would be my pick for cleaning that end if I were going to. Being a bench leg who is going to be looking at the end of it.
Regards
John

 

[dzj]

To prevent tear-out, plane from the edges towards the center.
Did you cut diagonally (2 sides at once) when cutting that leg?

 

[Just4Fun]

After decades of using western-style saws I recently acquired a cheap Japanese-style saw similar to the one you used. I have no problems cutting square with western saws but unless I am really careful I consistently veer off like you did with the Japanese saw. Did you veer off in the front-back direction or the up-down direction? A longer saw may help if you are going off line front to back but I doubt it will help vertically.
Some things you could try:

• Clamp a guide block onto your workpiece to help get your line correct. Not something to do on every piece but consider this "training wheels" until you can cut square without it

• Rotate the piece regularly during the cut so you cut in from all sides. This may not prevent drift but could make clean-up easier.

• Cut your line across the horizontal surface enough to act as a guide for the saw, then bring the saw down so you cut more on the vertical face. Concentrate on the vertical face, allowing your initial cut the keep the saw in line on the horizontal face. When you reach the bottom corner rotate the leg 90 degrees and do the next vertical face. Repeat.

• Use the reflection of the workpiece in the saw to judge when the saw is square to the wood. Try moving the saw around before you cut and you will soon see how the reflection shows if you are out of line.

• Get a piece of scrap and make many practise cuts.

• Think about your stance. Make sure you are moving your arm in line with the saw.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

If you do need to plane the ends square chamfer them first, it'll help stop any further breakout. You can even the chamfers up afterwards. They will also help stop any breakout if you drag the bench anywhere.

 

[MikeG.]

Sawing is all about triangles, and that applies whether you use a pushing (Western) saw or a pulling (Japanese) saw. You should be able to cut squarely and accurately with either, and without a knife-wall*. This is certainly a case of practising a lot.

Starting off is really important, and the free hand's thumb is a critical part of the process of getting the cut correctly located. Are you cutting at the bench, or on a saw horse? Because the latter is much, much easier to get accurate (except for tenon saws with a bench hook on small pieces). I would almost never use a handsaw at the bench. Start a corner with your head in such a position that you can see both lines. As soon as you have got far enough down start flattening out the cut, so that you don't progress any further down the far vertical face, but establish the cut across the top horizontal face. Once that has been established, you turn your focus to working down the far face, and with the horizontal cut now acting as a guide for the blade you only really need to focus on the vertical. Steepen up your cut. When you make it to the bottom of the vertical face, finish off the triangle, now using the two sawn face cuts as the guidelines. This is the easy bit. Complete the triangle, and go just a little past, to provide your starter for the next two faces.

Flip the workpiece 90 degrees away from you, and work your way across the new top face. This is much easier than when you started because the existing cut acts as a guide for the free end of the saw. Saw another triangle, in that this cut will extend from the bottom corner of the vertical face away from you, to the top corner of the horizontal nearest you. Again, I assume you are working on a saw horse.

Finally, flip the work 180 degrees and simply connect the 2 vertical cuts. You could do this from the previous wood position perfectly accurately if breakout isn't a problem for you, but best to work in from the face.

Rinse and repeat a thousand times.......and don't attribute any difficulties with this to your weaponry. Unless your saw is a really clunker, the issue is always technique.


*There is a place for a knife wall, certainly, but you really shouldn't need it for a simple square cut across a piece of 3x3 or 4x4. I tend to reserve them for tenon shoulders and diagonal cuts.

 

[Mr T]

I find that stance is quite important to getting a square cut. Stand so your arm is in line with the saw from shoulder to tip of the blade should be a straight line. Keep your head over the blade. Do some practice cuts. If find you are drifting away to the right (for a right hander) try moving your head to the right so you are looking more at the right side of the blade and vice verse if you are drifting the other way.

I agree with Phil.P, it's worth chamfering the ends of the leg to prevent splintering if the bench is dragged across a hard floor, chamfering will remove most of the break out.

CXhris

 

[Wend]

Thanks all!

I actually started cutting the top and near faces, rather than the top and far faces, as I can't see the far face. Is the advantage of a saw horse that it is lower, so you can look over the wood and see the far face more easily? (I was using something similar to a bench to do the cut). Are top-and-far easier to cut than top-and-near?

I don't think I was veering off front-back, so I'll give it another go with the saws I've got, and see if I can put any of the tips into practice.

 

[MikeG.]

......I actually started cutting the top and near faces, rather than the top and far faces, as I can't see the far face.......

You can make that work, if the work is up high. It just doesn't work so well in my experience. For one thing, trying to cross cut larger sections of wood at the bench means holding them in a vice, and you might tilt them a little so that you don't cut into your bench. You would also force yourself to be virtually on your knees as you cut down the near vertical face. A saw horse removes both of these issues.

Is the advantage of a saw horse that it is lower, so you can look over the wood and see the far face more easily?.......

Yes, but more than that, the saw is at a better angle to the wood.....or, at least, you have a much greater range of angles at which you can saw. And it means you can keep your work flat (see above). Plus, of course, you have gravity helping you (remember....let the saw do the work).

I say again.....this applies for larger pieces, where you would use a hand saw. Using a tenon saw, dovetail saw, gents saw, and so on is a different kettle of fish, and you would do these sort of cuts in a vice or on a bench hook.

 

[Bm101]

Unlike some of the others I'm about as far from an expert as possible. Just a no hoper down my little shed for fun but maybe it could help.

One tip that helped me out with Japanese saws was not extending my forefinger (instinctively after always using western saws previously).

One other thing that might only be in my head is that I tend to think, probably a bit weirdly, on lines of 'axis' for want of a better word when trying to get better. Not when eating my dinner. This is going to be hard to explain coherently because you never put it into words it's just one of those things that goes on in the back of your brain. With a western saw I think of the 'axis' as a line between the back of the saw, your wrist and your shoulder. Your elbow is the piston between them so to speak. Watch a professional snooker player to explain it better. The 'axis' (sorry, there it is again) is the shoulder to the hand and along the cue. But if you watch a good snooker player the elbow comes back and forth efficiently and on the same line, theres no lateral movement.
With japanese saws I find I get a better result if i kinda think of the efficient axis as running from the back of the saw, along the handle and to the elbow. That's the straight line, the efficent line if you like.In this case its the shoulder that's the piston. The feet, stance etc are all a part of that efficiency.

Might be a load of old cobblers (laughs insanely), but it works for me (at least to my standards :-$ :-" ). It's just about efficiency. Straighter you saw, the better the angle, the less wobble, the less the effort, the easier for you it is and that includes being relaxed, the better the result. You'll never see a good golfer try and whack the ball. Its effortless. The 100s of hours in making it look effortless probably weren't.

And now I'm waiting for Jacob to ask what I mean by Pistons and axis and the efficient line and ahhhh god. I don't knooooow!

 

[Jacob]

.........
And now I'm waiting for Jacob to ask what I mean by Pistons and axis and the efficient line and ahhhh god. I don't knooooow!

Wos all that about then? Coincidence but I was piston the beach only yesterday (Lanzarote, blazing sun, warm sea, gin and tonic.) Seems a lifetime ago already!

Sawing prob - looks 4" squarish redwood in the photo?
Use a general purpose tenon saw 10 t.p.i. ish. Mark all round. Cut well into the waste, according to how fine you want the finish i.e. if you want a perfect planed end, cut away from the line a mm or so.
First cut (with thumb as guide as per Mike's description) just across the face say 3mm deep. Turn the piece away one turn and start 2nd cut in the nick of the first cut and bring it back across second face - always exiting via the first cut so there is no spelching.
Cut the full triangle as per Mike's drawing 4.
Turn away once more and start 3rd cut in nick of second cut and saw the full triangle, like Mike's drawing 7 but turned back anti clockwise. Turn forward and this his leaves one half triangle as per 7 which you saw through, again exiting through the previous cut.
This way there is no spelching as all the saw cuts exit through a previous cut every time, except 1st 3mm.
Then blockplane a 45º bevel down to the line exactly, working carefully downhill to avoid spelching.
Then remove the raised end grain field remaining, working from edge towards the middle to avoid spelching. A very sharp finely set 5 1/2 perhaps.
I don't hold with these fashions for exotic saws, but you could work it the same but in reverse, with a pull saw, if you really want to make it difficult!

 

[Bm101]

I told ya! Sheeesh.
Glad you enjoyed your holiday Jacob.
Gin and tonic? Look at you with high ferlunkin mannerisms and you call Japanese saws exotic!
I made a few doss choices when starting out and buying tools. Most worked out ok a few didn't. Bit wiser now but the reason I bought a Japanese saw was because I reasoned I could get a better saw for less money that way. And I'll stand by that tbh. I reckon it's true. I'm not going off on one like we sometimes see on here about 'it's better. no question.' But for a beginner starting out I do think it stands. It's hard enough learning about fettling a plane never mind saw sets. And no I don't think they are better generally, just in certain circumstances. As Wend said, even the bench is a sidetrack. We're all different. If you have the experience it's not an issue with a western saw. I'm not knocking either but I'll even prove it to you Jacob. :wink:
Let's not mess about with any cheap timbers here for our demonstration.
Just today I was snagging the new en suite and had pre primed, undercoated and eggshelled a section of the ultra rare mdfius architravius for fitting. Only the finest timbers for this test!

Here you can see the prepared exotic, bought at great cost from Howdens and Sons (Est. 1328)

I only had to cut a little section to CT1 next to the door so I gave my 7 apprentice craftsman 4 minutes off to eat something for the first time in 11 years. (I'll take it out of their wages so don't worry)

I whipped out my exotic Japanese saw and swiped off the end like Darth Vader. A lifetimes experience went int that 20 second cut.
Now I ask you this Jacob? In all honesty, no disrespect meant in any way.
Show me a cheap western saw that will produce this finish. It hasn't even chipped the paint in real life terms.

The saw? Handcrafted by ancient masters of folding steel. Once the habits of the Samurai had died out, the German supermarkets had to come up with some way to bolster sales.

 

[Doug71]

Guess I am a bit old school when it comes to handsaws. I have tried pull saws a couple of times but never got on with them. I use the Bahco handsaws that you can put different blades in, maybe not really for fine woodworking but the blades are good and thick which helps make straight/square cuts.

Doug

 

[El Barto]

All I can say as someone relatively new to woodworking (started about 18 months ago) is that sawing square takes a tremendous amount of practice. I'm starting to get to the point where most of my cuts are square most of the time, or pretty close, but it still requires concentration and often requires finishing up with a plane.

Just keep going. I feel your frustration with drifting away from knife/pencil marks but steadily it will get much easier.

 

[Jacob]

The paradox of a lot of craft work is that things only start getting easier once you realise how difficult they really are.

 

[Jacob]

...
Here you can see the prepared exotic, bought at great cost from Howdens and Sons (Est. 1328)

I only had to cut a little section to CT1 next to the door so I gave my 7 apprentice craftsman 4 minutes off to eat something for the first time in 11 years. (I'll take it out of their wages so don't worry)

I whipped out my exotic Japanese saw and swiped off the end like Darth Vader. A lifetimes experience went int that 20 second cut.
Now I ask you this Jacob? In all honesty, no disrespect meant in any way.
Show me a cheap western saw that will produce this finish. It hasn't even chipped the paint in real life terms.

The saw? Handcrafted by ancient masters of folding steel. Once the habits of the Samurai had died out, the German supermarkets had to come up with some way to bolster sales.

So Japanese saws are good for cutting mdf? I'll bear that in mind!

 

[ED65]

I realise you're partly joshing Jacob but Japanese-style pull saws produce that great cut surface on anything they can cut, which includes any harder woods you'd care to name. Sticking to domestic woods on beech or oak the cut surface can be nearly so fine that even if the end grain were a show surface you'd be tempted to put finish on it straight away.

For anyone who would always plane a cut end to final dimension this quality of cut really isn't of much importance let's be honest, however pull saws do tend to cut faster than Western saws. Untensioned ones that is, Conteniental frame saws cut about the same speed.

 

[MikeG.]

Before this comes a Japanese Vs Western saw debate, how about we agree that speed is unimportant here for the OP, who is just looking for accuracy, and further, that finish isn't important for him/ her either (hence the planing)? Learning the technique is the issue here, and that applies whatever piece of kit you've got in your hand.

 

[D_W]

Cut the lines you can see, rotate the wood once you've cut what you can see. Stop cutting as soon as you're wandering.

You're never going to get perfect off of the saw, but you can get pretty close and then plane to the mark in the vise. Keep the blade of your plane coming into the cut and exiting on a significant diagonal if you can't resist planing off of the side of a piece.

I always cut the ends off of my planes by hand (by the time I use a chop saw and then plane off the saw marks, it's the same amount of time as it is just to hand saw and plane it, and the latter is more pleasant and never burns), and haven't ruined one in quite some time.

The first few were fairly ugly, and I'm pretty sure I could still make ugly ones if I tried to make the cut all in one quick straight through cut.

 

[Bm101]

So Japanese saws are good for cutting mdf? I'll bear that in mind!

Answer the question!
If you were any more evasive you would have set off the Big Red Alarm Bell at HMRC. Hope your tax returns are up to date. :wink:
I've cancelled my Chinese takeaway on the fact that rice is too exotic on the back of this thread. Potatoes were good enough for us when we were growing up. :roll:
All meant in the best spirit, ( *mumbles: just not Saki obviously)
Agree with Mike, it's a question of technique not tools. Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. I've as much to learn as anyone, probably more.
Cheers
Chris