Problem with chuck runout

[bertterbo]

I've recently purchased an Axminster floor standing drill press (AP700PD) and am having issues with the drill bits not running true. I don't even have to get out a dial indicator, I can simply place a square on the table, align it to the drill bit vertically, and then clearly see that as I rotate the chuck, the gap between the drill bit and the square can be as much as 1mm. This is measured at the bottom of the drill bit. So about 150mm from the spindle.

At first, I thought it was just a wonky drill bit. However, I have tried many different bits. Fisch brad points, and a stainless steel 10mm rod. All which appear to run true in my cordless, but then are noticably wonky in the drill press.

So ...

I bought a dial test indicator to see if I could figure out what was wrong.

- I removed the chuck and arbour from the drill and measuring the runout on the inside and outside of the spindle. There seems to be about 0.005mm to 0.01mm of runout.
- I removed the arbour from the chuck, put that in the spindle and measured. There seems to be about 0.01mm to 0.02mm of runout.
- I then put the chuck on the arbour and inserted a drill bit, and measured at the top of the drill bit where it's fixed into the chuck. There seems to be about 0.15mm of runout.

so I contacted Axminster and they sent me a new chuck and arbour.

However, I noticed no difference, still visibly wonky and the dial indicator readings are pretty much the same.

I also purchased a basic key scroll chuck and arbour from RDG tools. This seems to run better, but still not what I'd expect from an £800 drill. I can still put a square against the drill bit and see movement as I rotate the chuck.

I find it hard to believe that all 3 chucks are inaccurate. Yet the readings I get from the spindle appear to be very good?

The other strange thing is that if I rotate the drill bit in the chuck, I can reduce the amount of visible wonkyness!!! .... on all 3 chucks. It's bizzare. I can't explain it.

What an earth is going on?

 

[clogs]

u have to start somewhere.......
did u buy it new from AXI...?....if so get it exchanged or at least get em to send an engineer....
if it was new and u exchange it, either go look at the next one u get in the flesh or get them to measure the accuracy....
is there any play in the spindle.......
modern d/presses are not known for a decent fit even something as expensive as ur's...
the high end drills norm have a method of tightening the shaft fit....
modern machines are not nec checked when assembled....
the concensus is, if u can put up with the machine they dont have to bother......
I've no idea where u could buy a decent machine for £800 but for me it wont be AXI....

 

[Ttrees]

Having fought with my old drill for a long time, but not threw money at it,
There's some things which might be going on here,
I'm still noticing runout also, so interesting enough to try and find out.

I suspect the MT arbor might be bottoming out in the quill.
There's a video of someone re-maching the quill on YT.


I tried bluing to spot something, but not noticed anything stand out,
but did notice the arbor has less runout in one orientation when re-inserted again.

Another thing I find might be of help is twisting the bit anticlockwise when chucking the bit,
but that could just be my jaws at fault.


Another way to notice runout is by twisting the bit in an already drilled large hole,
with the vise loosely holding the work, then noticeable movement might be very obvious should the chuck be turned the other way.
This might be one of the best tests, should one not have a clock,
and even if so, might pin point more clearly what the issue might be.

Tom

 

[Richard_C]

It's seriously disappointing when new and expensive kit doesn't work properly. A few simple thoughts.

If you put the drill bit into the chuck as far as it will go it might not settle properly between the jaws, just pull it down a few mm, tighten and see if it changes anything (one of my cordless drills is like that). Even my cheap as chips horrible Screwfix drill press has a spindle play adjuster, to loose and it runs out, too tight and the vertical movement is graunchy, does yours have? Likely a pair of nuts locked together on a short thread in the body a little way above the chuck or a slotted end thread with a locknut. Finally take the drive cover off, assuming it's pulley drive, rotate by hand, is anything nasty going on at that end? Bent pulley, loose on spindle shaft...

Then ring Axi again.

 

[bertterbo]

Thanks for the suggestions.

It's not the drill bit bottoming out as I am always carefull not to do that.

In regard to messing with the spindle. If I am getting at most 0.01mm runout when testing the spindle, doesn't that suggest it's fine at that point?

 

[JBaz]

Betterbo

I'll be watching this thread with interest as I have exactly the same problem with the Axminster WD16F I bought new some years ago.

I too have removed the quill and tried to find where the run-out occurs, but nothing seems to fix it. The dial gauge shows the quill is running true*, but put the indicator on a drill bit and the run-out is significant.
(*not 100%, but good enough)

I have tried changing the the chuck and the morse taper shank, but nothing.

 

[bertterbo]

It would be good if people could post some readings they get on their drill that they think are acceptable?

Ideally, before the chuck, and then perhaps at the point where the chuck grips onto the bit.

 

[Phill05]

If all is looking fine has anyone checked the drill bits?

 

[bertterbo]

In this video you can see the light between the gap of the rod and square opening and closing. Runs perfectly true in my cordless drill

Arbour measurement

Top of rod measurement

 

[Ttrees]

Have you tried turning the arbor around, so the tang is 180 deg,
as viewable should there be a slot for knocking out the chuck/arbor?
I put a mark on mine.

Keen to note is there a lot of runout should changing direction of chuck make very notable.

Have you tried bluing w/ marker?

Regarding a warped rod or not, possible to note by simply rolling on a flat surface.

 

[bertterbo]

Have you tried turning the arbor around, so the tang is 180 deg,
as viewable should there be a slot for knocking out the chuck/arbor?
I put a mark on mine.

Keen to note is there a lot of runout should changing direction of chuck make very notable.

Have you tried bluing w/ marker?

Regarding a warped rod or not, possible to note by simply rolling on a flat surface.

Yep, I have tried turning the arbor. Still seems to run very true when measuring the arbor, but same results after that.

I'm pretty confident the rod is true as I have tested it. And as I have mentioned, it runs perfectly true in my cordless drill.

 

[Sandyn]

is the table set and is the square square?

 

[bertterbo]

is the table set and is the square square?

Not sure why that would make a difference? I'm measuring the relative difference.

 

[Sandyn]

I've been confused by how you are measuring and some of the statements you have made. I'm not sure if you think the runout on the spindle was acceptable to you? You measured 0.005 to 0.01mm? are you happy with that? I would be delighted with it. That's 0.2 thou!!
The statement that confused me was when you purchased a cheap chuck/arbor from RGD and found the chuck runout was better than the chuck delivered, but not what you would expect from an £800 pound drill. The drill can't correct a wonky chuck, It just confused me. In order to do measurements of this type, you need a known starting point. Drills can't be trusted, even when new.
What is the square sitting on when you did the video? A Dial indicator won't show if the spindle is at an angle. I think your problem is possibly measurement technique, but I'm not getting at you. It's difficult to figure out your thinking.
You need to establish a starting point. Is the table square to the spindle. Is the rod you are using straight and round? is your square accurate.

If you buy inexpensive chucks, you might get a really good one, but the probability is they will all have runout, certainly more than 0.2 thou --0.005mm

I think you probably have an excellent drill, but you might need a better chuck to get the accuracy you want. Do you actually need such accuracy?

 

[bertterbo]

Sorry for the confusion!

You measured 0.005 to 0.01mm? are you happy with that? I would be delighted with it. That's 0.2 thou!!

That was me trying to show why I don't think the issue was with the spindle/arbor, but I have no idea what a good reading for a drill in this price bracket should actually be at the arbor, ...hence me asking

If you buy inexpensive chucks, you might get a really good one, but the probability is they will all have runout, certainly more than 0.2 thou --0.005mm

That was the reading at the arbor. The reading at the chuck was about 0.15 - 0.2mm

The statement that confused me was when you purchased a cheap chuck/arbor from RGD and found the chuck runout was better than the chuck delivered, but not what you would expect from an £800 pound drill. The drill can't correct a wonky chuck, It just confused me

What I meant here was that I would not be happy to just use that new chuck and call it quits, as I still feel there is something wrong.

Do you actually need such accuracy?

1mm out at the bottom of the drill bit???

I still don't know why you're asking about the table or the square. As long as the table is secure, I could have used anything to measure. It doesn't need to be a square. The table could be 5 degrees out, it would still be a relative measurement.

From what I can see, the only thing that makes sense is that all 3 chucks are bad, which sounds highly unlikely. Which is why I wanted to get some advice to see if I am doing things right.

And I still don't see how rotating the bit in the chuck seems to produce different results.

The Rod I am using is perfectly straight. I've checked it at multiple rotation points against a straight edge, no light, and it runs perfectly true in my cordless drills.

 

[Ttrees]

Hello again, just for clarity sake

I take it the arbor isn't bottoming out in the quill like in the fellas video above.

So you were saying, the position of the arbor in the quill doesn't make difference,
not even with the arbor swapped 180 degrees.
I've got that.

Have you got three arbors or just three chucks?


Is the runout greater if chuck is hand turned in the other direction/reverse, i.e possibly noticeable with even the table raised and rod centered in bore.

And do you notice less runout of that rod if twisted so as to align the chuck jaws in the direction of drilling force.

My video demonstrates this well, and originally I was doing this just incase I felt any burrs.
I think it makes a difference.

Just trying to get some insight, as I've spent a few months working on getting my drill working
and only just got the results I was needing, after quite a few attempts.
So have much interest should you get this sorted.
Might save me needing to purchase a dial indicator and base.

I was going to go down this road once I'd exhausted everything else,
and not really content with the machine yet.

Thanks

Tom

 

[Chief Sawdust Maker]

My gut feeling for what its worth and a similar experience it is most likely the arbour that the chuck mounts on
I inherited a very very old Clark drill press from my father when I set my workshop up no matter what drill or bit i put in it I could not get it to run true. I checked the spindle with mag base and clock and was surprised to find out how accurate it was at around 2.5 thou the run out at the drill bit was far far worse
I purchased a replacement chuck and arbour from Machine Mart and there was no difference
After much research I purchased a keyless chuck and arbour which was not cheap, both the chuck and arbour came covered in anti rust this is where cleanliness is key I cleaned both items until they were spot less, I then used a press to press the arbour into the chuck i then spent time cleaning the internal Morse taper on the drill
I knew the table was square and true to the spindle so I mounted the arbour and chuck into spindle using a block of hard wood between the chuck and the table to ensure the arbour was fully seated with the tang on the arbour inline with the drift hole on the spindle.
The run out with a piece or ground bar in the chuck nipped up tight was around 1.5 thou success the set up stayed with me for around 15 months until the drill press went to the great burnt out motor junk yard
I replaced the drill press with a Nova Voyager DVR 18 yes I know they are expensive but the products I make involve a lot of drilling and I would hazard a guess that most people spend big money on planer thicknessers band saws table saws but usually very little on a drill press. The Nova came with a new chuck and arbour (not installed) so after checking square and set up installed the keyless chuck and arbour which I removed from the Clark prior to its disposal run out at the drill bit was around 1.25 thou better than quoted on the Nova web site
I have had the Nova for around 6 months and its a fantastic bit of kit from 2mm twist drill to a 42mm saw tooth forstner bit and on occasions chuck out and a variety of MT2 drills used directly in the spindle.
My first look would be the mating of the arbour into the chuck
Hope this helps
D

 

[Sandyn]

From what I can see, the only thing that makes sense is that all 3 chucks are bad, which sounds highly unlikely.

I think you have shown that the drill is OK, I think it's very good, which is good news.

You have also shown that inexpensive chucks are pretty poor and all three are poor. You need to get a much better quality chuck if you need the precision
Out of interest, I did a check on my lathe with a chinese chuck on an MT2 taper.

At the lathe spindle, 0.0025mm runout.
At the MT2 arbor going in to the chuck, 0.005mm
At the chuck with various bits, 0.1mm.
On a 10cm ground steel bar, measured 23cm from spindle measurement point
Reading 1: 0.24mm, then release bar, rotate and tighten a number of times.
reading 2: 0.34mm
reading 3: 0.18mm
reading 4: 0.24mm

Not as bad as your 1mm, but I suspect that's what you will get with a 'non precision' chuck. Some may be a lot better.
I don't see any spec for accuracy in the Axminster user manual, so you don't know if it's in spec. I suspect it will be within their spec for the spindle.

They do specify the runout for their engineering series

"""The TB-16 bench pillar drill is truly designed for engineering and production use. Very heavily built and manufactured to exceptionally accurate tolerances,.This drill press will stand up to hard work day in day out. The headstock has been machined to precisely match the quill housing, virtually eliminating any spindle run-out, even at full quill extension. The tolerance of the spindle runout (Quill movement) is + 0.01mm. """ I don't see a figure for the runout at the chuck.

NOTE: your spindle is well within tolerance for their Engineering series, so you should be really pleased about that!!


I think the issue is the chucks. You either need to get Axminister to give you a better chuck or buy/borrow one to get the improvement you want.

and as @Chief Sawdust Maker just said, make sure the mating surfaces are clean, page 13 in the manual.

 

[Fergie 307]

Sorry if you have already done this, but have you clocked the outside of the chuck. Seems likely that the taper bore is not centred correctly to the rest of it.

 

[Sandyn]

On my Chinese chuck, the outside is way off, looks like I machined it!!

To quote a very famous detective.....When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.