DBT85
Established Member
Do parking sensors on cars illicit the same fervour among the inmates I wonder?
Probably not the best marketing for Sawstop
- Thread starter transatlantic
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Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Parking sensors on cars are more a marketing gimmick than a safety device, though, aren't they? As in - "Look! Our top of the range posh-mobile has more bells and whistles than those of our competitors!"
The consequences of failure of a car parking sensor is some bent metal incurred at low speed. The consequences of failure of a Saw Stop sensor could be an employee losing part of their anatomy permanently.
Different kettle of fish altogether.
The consequences of failure of a car parking sensor is some bent metal incurred at low speed. The consequences of failure of a Saw Stop sensor could be an employee losing part of their anatomy permanently.
Different kettle of fish altogether.
DBT85
Established Member
Having had a car for 5 years without, and then 2 cars for 7 years with, I'd happily say they are more than a gimmick. They do only stop you having a slow crunch. But that can still be an expensive fix. I seem to recall a lot of people over the years beating theirs chests and informing the masses that men, real men, don't need parking sensors. These may have been the same ones who informed everyone that seatbelts were for wusses though.
No, we don't NEED them, but bugger me sideways if they aren't useful. The Sawstop is useful. If you do everything that you're supposed to do, you'll never need it. Only takes a second though.
If you don't want it, don't buy it. But it does the job it says it does. Ignoring for a moment that the video in the op should have used a guard, how much worse would that exact incident have been if the only difference in circumstances was the saw not being able to eat itself?
No, we don't NEED them, but bugger me sideways if they aren't useful. The Sawstop is useful. If you do everything that you're supposed to do, you'll never need it. Only takes a second though.
If you don't want it, don't buy it. But it does the job it says it does. Ignoring for a moment that the video in the op should have used a guard, how much worse would that exact incident have been if the only difference in circumstances was the saw not being able to eat itself?
Inspector
Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck!
I baulk at all that parking, lane change warning, collision braking and self driving cars but since I'm 64 and I realize that that junk may allow me my independence long after my licence would be pulled. I'll keep the SawStop so I can push the on/off button when I want to go buy groceries. :lol:
Cheshirechappie
Established Member
Car parking sensors are not legal requirements to ensure the health and safety of employees. Provisions for the safe use of circular saws in commercial and industrial environments are. Thus, you're comparing apples with pears.
One of the things you do when looking at safety matters at work is apply simple things first. If it's a choice between relying on fixed items and things with no moving parts, both of which have high inherent reliability, and things with mechanisms and sensors, which have lower reliability, you go for the former. Thus, riving knives and crown guards are preferable solutions to devices with sensors and moving parts.
UK experience is that saws fitted with said riving knife and crown guard, and used by properly trained operators with push sticks, pretty well eliminated all the accidents that happened when saws were not so fitted. So much so, that the greatest number of saw accidents then happened after the saw had been switched off but before it had run down and stopped. Thus, the requirement to fit spindle brakes or motor brakes. It's hard to see how SawStop would enhance or supplant those legal provisions, especially given the relative long-term reliability of UK requirements and SawStop technology. Hence the UK indifference or antipathy.
One of the things you do when looking at safety matters at work is apply simple things first. If it's a choice between relying on fixed items and things with no moving parts, both of which have high inherent reliability, and things with mechanisms and sensors, which have lower reliability, you go for the former. Thus, riving knives and crown guards are preferable solutions to devices with sensors and moving parts.
UK experience is that saws fitted with said riving knife and crown guard, and used by properly trained operators with push sticks, pretty well eliminated all the accidents that happened when saws were not so fitted. So much so, that the greatest number of saw accidents then happened after the saw had been switched off but before it had run down and stopped. Thus, the requirement to fit spindle brakes or motor brakes. It's hard to see how SawStop would enhance or supplant those legal provisions, especially given the relative long-term reliability of UK requirements and SawStop technology. Hence the UK indifference or antipathy.
For info - Sawstop now have a large market share in USA & increasing sales within their segment
That's info direct from one one of their competitors.
Their 'USP' has worked by the sounds of it.
That's info direct from one one of their competitors.
Their 'USP' has worked by the sounds of it.
novocaine
Established Member
Oscar, you may also notice that a lot of those youtube chaps have been gifted them by sawstop. clever marketing right there, the cost of a saw gets you untold free advertising that you couldn't buy.
Now then, UK HSE regulations are based on the principles of ALARP (As Low As Reasonable Practicable) which can be taken as the point at which the cost (effort, time or monetary cost) of preventing an injury becomes grossly disproportionate to the level of damage after all legislation has been applied, it also encourages the use of the risk control hierarchy. So as already stated (Chesire Chappie I think), there is legislation for industry which stipulates simple, cheap and easy to install and use controls for table saw use including training, fixed guards, riving knife and motor brake (not all are needed if you can prove that there is no other way of doing a task, however defeating a basic safety feature technically contravenes other laws). The only one that requires any maintenance and inspection beyond a visual check is the training, everything else is so ingrained within the culture of the industry that it is second nature and comes with the machine at now substantial increase in cost (I wasn't around when guards became mandatory, the cost increase to new machine purchase was minimal though I believe). They are also completely audit-able and verifiable with no special training required (you can see if someone is using a saw with guards in place from miles away and see if any of them are disabled with a quick visual of the saw) neither of which are possible with the saw stop and as already mentioned the system has an override (which is required as wet timber or metal can set it off at a rather large outlay of a new blade and brake) which can be activated by the user and has no way of tracking that it has been used as it resets after every restart. Basically sawstop is an expensive solution which is disproportionate to the level of injury and is only beneficial if all other safety devices have been defeated by the operator and as such is a "nice to have" rather than a recommended solution, fitting an industrial was with one and removing the guards and training in safe use of push sticks would not be acceptable (much like providing a fall arrestor over fitting hand rails on raised platforms).
that was longer than I intended and I'm sure I made a mistake in there but can't be bothered rereading it
.
here is the UK HSE hierarchy of control for those that maybe interested.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/lwit ... ntrols.pdf
addendum, American legislation does not use the ALARP principles, instead it mandates specific controls that must be in place, these are state dependent and cause no end of head aches, especially when your a site that covers a state line. they do have a similar principle in some industries, not all though.
Now then, UK HSE regulations are based on the principles of ALARP (As Low As Reasonable Practicable) which can be taken as the point at which the cost (effort, time or monetary cost) of preventing an injury becomes grossly disproportionate to the level of damage after all legislation has been applied, it also encourages the use of the risk control hierarchy. So as already stated (Chesire Chappie I think), there is legislation for industry which stipulates simple, cheap and easy to install and use controls for table saw use including training, fixed guards, riving knife and motor brake (not all are needed if you can prove that there is no other way of doing a task, however defeating a basic safety feature technically contravenes other laws). The only one that requires any maintenance and inspection beyond a visual check is the training, everything else is so ingrained within the culture of the industry that it is second nature and comes with the machine at now substantial increase in cost (I wasn't around when guards became mandatory, the cost increase to new machine purchase was minimal though I believe). They are also completely audit-able and verifiable with no special training required (you can see if someone is using a saw with guards in place from miles away and see if any of them are disabled with a quick visual of the saw) neither of which are possible with the saw stop and as already mentioned the system has an override (which is required as wet timber or metal can set it off at a rather large outlay of a new blade and brake) which can be activated by the user and has no way of tracking that it has been used as it resets after every restart. Basically sawstop is an expensive solution which is disproportionate to the level of injury and is only beneficial if all other safety devices have been defeated by the operator and as such is a "nice to have" rather than a recommended solution, fitting an industrial was with one and removing the guards and training in safe use of push sticks would not be acceptable (much like providing a fall arrestor over fitting hand rails on raised platforms).
that was longer than I intended and I'm sure I made a mistake in there but can't be bothered rereading it
. here is the UK HSE hierarchy of control for those that maybe interested.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/lwit ... ntrols.pdf
addendum, American legislation does not use the ALARP principles, instead it mandates specific controls that must be in place, these are state dependent and cause no end of head aches, especially when your a site that covers a state line. they do have a similar principle in some industries, not all though.
Tasky
Established Member
Plus, if you introduce last-ditch safety features, people will rely on those to save them instead of working safely in the first place.
ScaredyCat
Established Member
*novocaine":302ot84a said:
*[Citation needed]
I think, of all people, Jeremy Clarkson put it simply as air bags and seat belts should be banned, and instead, the steering wheel should have a large spike fitted facing the driver. People would be much more careful when driving. He might be right, but I don't think many would follow through on the process. Making assumptions that everyone is stupid and wouldn't use other protection too is quite a frankly blinkered. Given that no one is actually forced to buy a Sawstop I fail to see why, if someone decided to have one, it should be an issue. Certainly if you're in a commercial workshop and the staff are trained as required, why does it matter if someone bypasses it? You'd still be able to see if they'd got the crown guard on from across the room.
Compared to other saws in the same class, Sawstop aren't really that expensive. Even at $5k (7.5hp/52 inch fence, complete with side tables) doesn't seem that bad - especially comparing to a Powermatic (top of the range same specs) PM3000 - it's still cheaper.
novocaine
Established Member
fine, I BELIEVE that a large percentage of youtube wood workers have been gifted a saw stop. so what if they have, it's a damned clever bit of advertising, dewalt have done the same thing.
I have no issue with it as a saw, they are a good bit of kit, I wasn't bad mouthing them as such merly pointing out how they stand in terms of UK legislation in an industrial setting and how they would not meet the guidelines if all other safety methods aren't in place already. If I had that level of money to spend on a new saw (I don't, but then I'm happy with my little saw) they would be in the running.
I have no issue with it as a saw, they are a good bit of kit, I wasn't bad mouthing them as such merly pointing out how they stand in terms of UK legislation in an industrial setting and how they would not meet the guidelines if all other safety methods aren't in place already. If I had that level of money to spend on a new saw (I don't, but then I'm happy with my little saw) they would be in the running.
I know TheWoodWhisperer is sponsored by Powermatic and proudly has it in his opening titles, I'm not so sure about others I follow, I find they often make a point of mentioning they have "insert name here" tool but they're not sponsored by them. Matthias Wandel always says if a manufacturer gives him something to test and keep.
I was reading the accident stories on SawStop's website, they got one fella who's hand was pushed into his blade when a load of stacked up wood fell down onto him. You could be using your pushsticks, being careful etc and *bam* something unexpected happens like that, why not have the extra protection just in case?
I was reading the accident stories on SawStop's website, they got one fella who's hand was pushed into his blade when a load of stacked up wood fell down onto him. You could be using your pushsticks, being careful etc and *bam* something unexpected happens like that, why not have the extra protection just in case?
Tasky
Established Member
Why not just put a bit of rope across the wood to stop it from falling? Probably cheaper than a SawStop...OscarG":fo5b7rsa said:
:lol:
transatlantic
Boom!
People like John Heize and Matthias Wandel infuriate me. They both seem like really smart talented people, but when it comes to safety, they can't seem to grasp basic concepts. The attitude of I don't need the safety equipment because I know how to use a saw correctly is just dangerous. We're humans, not robots. No matter how much experience we have, all it takes is that one off day, or that one bit of unpredicatble material, or something that distracts us for whatever reason.
What's perhaps more concerning is the amount of people that look up to them and regurgitate the same crap which others will follow.
What's perhaps more concerning is the amount of people that look up to them and regurgitate the same crap which others will follow.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
This is pretty bad though he has got the 2 push sticks idea, some of the time! He needs a riving knife and a crown guard for most of what he does heretransatlantic":1634e3am said:
DBT85
Established Member
That sounds exactly like something Clarkson would say and also actually believe.ScaredyCat":89mbv83u said:
transatlantic":fiy8aqvy said:
Agreed. I unsubscribed from Heize's vids. Apart from his reckless "don't need any safety devices, I've been doing this 30 years..blah blah...watch me stick my fingers right near blade" attitude his videos have become really dull, just him talking to camera and not actually making/doing anything.
I still like Wandel's vids. I'm fascinated by what he makes but wince sometimes when he's using the saw!
stuartpaul
Established Member
As much as I despise the man he's right. You need to delve quite deeply in the psychology of accidents to fully understand some of the concepts but people now walk away from car accidents that would have been fatalities in years gone by.DBT85":22b3i7oj said:
This does have an effect on the 'operator'. Same issue with sawstop.
Tasky
Established Member
Clarky's alright.stuartpaul":2lyv5v26 said:
Most of the dickheadedness you see on TV is an act. He's quite different off camera... unlike one of his shorter co-hosts.
But I agree. The mentality that safety measures tends to instil is one of abandoning responsibility. Accidents on the twisties round here actually increased when they put up those Max Speed signs on the tighter corners, because people assumed they'd always be fine so long as they went round at the posted 30, 40, 50... and that's what I see people thinking when you give them a magical SawStop mechanism.
transatlantic
Boom!
I guess it's similar to that idea of having count down timers for traffic lights. Everyone assumes it would be a good idea as in theory, people would manage their speed better when approaching the light, knowing early on whether they need to start slowing down. In practise, it encourages people to speed up to beat the timer.
