Probably not the best marketing for Sawstop

[transatlantic]

Do you believe seat belts and airbags makes for a sloppy driver?

Absolutely.

On my DeWalt saw I keep the crown guard on all the time, it still works even if the blade is tilted 30 degs (no idea if all crown guards work like that?) and as Jabob suggests I use 2 pushsticks, my hands are never near the blade and I have a healthy fear/respect of the machine but if an extra bit of safety like saw stop was available I'd still take it and hope I'd never need it.

I think it's a shame the other manufacturers didn't take the opportunity to license the tech and make it more affordable/available. Festool acquiring it just makes it worse.

It was my understanding that SawStop wouldn't allow the technology to be licensed, something to do with the owner being pissed about the companies not showing any interest to begin with, but only when he had done all the work himself. Bosch tried to come up with their own system, but SawStop took legal action as it was too similar.

 

[Tasky]

I wonder how many pilots use such methods to prove their ejection seats and parachutes work... or how many chefs stick their hands in the oven...

 

[OscarG]

It was my understanding that SawStop wouldn't allow the technology to be licensed, something to do with the owner being pineappled about the companies not showing any interest to begin with, but only when he had done all the work himself. Bosch tried to come up with their own system, but SawStop took legal action as it was too similar.

I could be wrong but I thought sawstop initially tried to license the tech but when the manufacturers turned their noses up he then decided to build his own saw and compete with them.

 

[Seiken]

The first video the guy thinks he pushed his hand into the Saw by accident, if the Saw hadn’t stopped he would have had a very very serious injury / amputation. In the second video the guy was very carefully deliberately touching the blade hence virtually no injury. Why he would choose to touch the blade where its going into the table rather than the other side I don’t understand.......but testing an unknown system with your hand seems seriously certifiable!

There is no substitute for a crown guard and keeping your hands away from the blade; but I do think that Saw Stop or similar should be mandatory on all saws where the blade is small enough for it to work, particularly for the DIY saws

Aside from how good or not the system is under no circumstance should it be mandatory on diy saws, there's enough problems with the nanny state without giving manufacturers an excuse to put up their prices by adding something many of us will not want. Its different in a commercial situation where the employer has a duty to make things as safe as is practictable.

 

[transatlantic]

It was my understanding that SawStop wouldn't allow the technology to be licensed, something to do with the owner being pineappled about the companies not showing any interest to begin with, but only when he had done all the work himself. Bosch tried to come up with their own system, but SawStop took legal action as it was too similar.

I could be wrong but I thought sawstop initially tried to license the tech but when the manufacturers turned their noses up he then decided to build his own saw and compete with them.

Isn't that what I just said?

 

[Jacob]

SawStop aren't into saw safety at all.
If they were they'd be selling crown guards, push-sticks and giving out safe operating information.
They wouldn't do that because instead they are trying to sell you very expensive machines equipped with very dubious "safety" kit, which would only ever be needed by people with absolutely zero basic knowledge of safe machine operating.
Even then there's no guarantee that the device will work as required - all machines fail. Or would you test it frequently with frankfurters? Next they'll be supplying their own brand of test frankfurter!
I understand it can be switched off too.

No money in push-sticks!

PS If the SawStop operates can you then carry on or does it wreck the blade or need re- charging or anything? If so this is a major disincentive to making it available to those who would most need it (safety ignorant beginners)

 

[PAC1]

SawStop aren't into saw safety at all.
If they were they'd be selling crown guards, push-sticks and giving out safe operating information.
They wouldn't do that because instead they are trying to sell you very expensive machines equipped with very dubious "safety" kit, which would only ever be needed by people with absolutely zero basic knowledge of safe machine operating.
Even then there's no guarantee that the device will work as required - all machines fail. Or would you test it frequently with frankfurters? Next they'll be supplying their own brand of test frankfurter!
I understand it can be switched off too.

No money in push-sticks!

PS If the SawStop operates can you then carry on or does it wreck the blade or need re- charging or anything? If so this is a major disincentive to making it available to those who would most need it (safety ignorant beginners)

Oh it drives a couple of Kilo of Aluminium into your £100 saw blade thereby ensuring that not only do you pay for Saw Stop in the first place but now a replacement module and saw blade is needed. How much is a crown guard and push stick! Or even for that matter a SUVA Guard.

 

[Jacob]

SawStop aren't into saw safety at all.
If they were they'd be selling crown guards, push-sticks and giving out safe operating information.
They wouldn't do that because instead they are trying to sell you very expensive machines equipped with very dubious "safety" kit, which would only ever be needed by people with absolutely zero basic knowledge of safe machine operating.
Even then there's no guarantee that the device will work as required - all machines fail. Or would you test it frequently with frankfurters? Next they'll be supplying their own brand of test frankfurter!
I understand it can be switched off too.

No money in push-sticks!

PS If the SawStop operates can you then carry on or does it wreck the blade or need re- charging or anything? If so this is a major disincentive to making it available to those who would most need it (safety ignorant beginners)

Oh it drives a couple of Kilo of Aluminium into your £100 saw blade thereby ensuring that not only do you pay for Saw Stop in the first place but now a replacement module and saw blade is needed. How much is a crown guard and push stick! Or even for that matter a SUVA Guard.

In other words it's complete bollo**s. Thats what I thought from the beginning. They'll sell a few though!

 

[Inspector]

I don't think there is anything that brings out more passion and opinions than the subject of SawStop. Okay it's a third behind politics and religion.

There was a time when none of your machine tools had guards of any kind and when governments mandated them there was all kinds of whimpering about "the nanny state", how unnecessary they were if you knew what you were doing, they blocked your vision of the blade and the list went on. If the blade brake technology existed then it would have been mandated too and the argument today would be why the heck wouldn't you have them on all tools. The American culture is extremely resistant to regulation, progress and anything resembling common sense so it's no surprise to me that there is a shortage of fingers here and it is accepted and defended. You'd think they would want to do everything possible to keep their trigger fingers in tip top shape,,,,,,,but nope. Doesn't bother me a bit having the "save me from my own stupidity" protection on the saw and I don't mind if it goes off accidentally since the blade will probably need sharpening anyway. Most people can pay for another blade and brake cartridge from the empties sitting in the garage or basement.

Keep cutting and have fun
Pete

 

[Jacob]

..... You'd think they would want to do everything possible to keep their trigger fingers in tip top shape.....

That's really easy; you keep them always well away from the cutters, whatever machine it is, and cover the cutters wherever possible.
If you find this difficult then maybe you shouldn't be playing with woodwork machinery at all.

 

[Tasky]

I don't think there is anything that brings out more passion and opinions than the subject of SawStop.

Really?
OK then, when thsi SawStop thing has gone off and knackered your blade, how do you go about resharpening it?

Most people can pay for another blade and brake cartridge from the empties sitting in the garage or basement.

That may not be the case elsewhere, where everything costs a bomb...

 

[PAC1]

I don't think there is anything that brings out more passion and opinions than the subject of SawStop. Okay it's a third behind politics and religion.

There was a time when none of your machine tools had guards of any kind and when governments mandated them there was all kinds of whimpering about "the nanny state", how unnecessary they were if you knew what you were doing, they blocked your vision of the blade and the list went on. If the blade brake technology existed then it would have been mandated too and the argument today would be why the heck wouldn't you have them on all tools. The American culture is extremely resistant to regulation, progress and anything resembling common sense so it's no surprise to me that there is a shortage of fingers here and it is accepted and defended. You'd think they would want to do everything possible to keep their trigger fingers in tip top shape,,,,,,,but nope. Doesn't bother me a bit having the "save me from my own stupidity" protection on the saw and I don't mind if it goes off accidentally since the blade will probably need sharpening anyway. Most people can pay for another blade and brake cartridge from the empties sitting in the garage or basement.

Keep cutting and have fun
Pete

Ah. Now I understand. It is for those with more money than sense!
Also this side of the pond, we do not have a deposit scheme for recycling our empties, so would need to finance the new blade a different way.

 

[D_W]

It was my understanding that SawStop wouldn't allow the technology to be licensed, something to do with the owner being pineappled about the companies not showing any interest to begin with, but only when he had done all the work himself. Bosch tried to come up with their own system, but SawStop took legal action as it was too similar.

I could be wrong but I thought sawstop initially tried to license the tech but when the manufacturers turned their noses up he then decided to build his own saw and compete with them.

I think the issue was price. SS wanted a ton of money to license the technology and the manufacturers said it was too large of a hike over the current saw price totals and customers wouldn't go for it.

So, the owner turned around and tried to get legislation to mandate it. Real nice guy. That's sarcasm, of course.

IIRC, he's an attorney. Very calculating in the steps that he'd taken and went into manufacturing only when he couldn't leverage manufacturers into giving him a pile of cash at the outset and couldn't get the government to mandate it (which would've lined his pockets).

That's my opinion, of course. I don't mind seeing it on the market, but I've never seen it as something I want (perfectly happy to use push sticks and hand saws).

 

[Tasky]

That's really easy; you keep them always well away from the cutters, whatever machine it is, and cover the cutters wherever possible.

That'd be like..... like.... NOT pointing a gun at someone!! :shock:

 

[OscarG]

It was my understanding that SawStop wouldn't allow the technology to be licensed, something to do with the owner being pineappled about the companies not showing any interest to begin with, but only when he had done all the work himself. Bosch tried to come up with their own system, but SawStop took legal action as it was too similar.

I could be wrong but I thought sawstop initially tried to license the tech but when the manufacturers turned their noses up he then decided to build his own saw and compete with them.

Isn't that what I just said?

Hmmm not quite!

I'd say there's a difference between refusing to do something and trying and failing to do something.

 

[OscarG]

So, the owner turned around and tried to get legislation to mandate it. Real nice guy. That's sarcasm, of course.

IIRC, he's an attorney. Very calculating in the steps that he'd taken and went into manufacturing only when he couldn't leverage manufacturers into giving him a pile of cash at the outset and couldn't get the government to mandate it (which would've lined his pockets).

I am pretty impressed with the tech and think it's a step forward but I agree with your points about making it law to line his own pocket, that's kind of a "***** move", as I believe our American cousins would say. Disappointed to learn he did that.

 

[ScaredyCat]

thereby ensuring that not only do you pay for Saw Stop in the first place but now a replacement module and saw blade is needed.

Sawstop offer free replacement cartridges after an activation that 'saved' you in exchange for your story.

 

[Jacob]

SawStop is obviously nonsense but there is a role for good brakes - to stop the machine very quickly instead of grabbing for the workpiece being chewed up and risking a cut finger.
Wouldn't stop you poking your finger into the moving blade but only an ***** or a beginner would do that! :lol:
But should we not protect idiots and beginners? And Americans?
Learner drivers can forget where the brake pedal is. That doesn't mean we should install retro rockets and brake parachutes in all cars, it means that learners need a bit of instruction, practice and training in a safe or simulated environment.

 

[Inspector]

See what I mean about passion and emotion. :roll:

Please don't read a lot of emotion into the following, because my heart isn't racing nor am I raising the pitch or volume of my voice. Only trying to fill in the holes.

SawStop guards and riving knives stay aligned with the blade when they are raised, lowered, or tilted. When switched back and forth there is no adjustments just lift and lower the clamping leaver so there are no excuses for not using them if the cuts allow, if they don't then you use sleds et cetera, some brains and good practice.

The only time a brake will fire is if the blade is turning and it touches flesh, metal or extremely wet/pressure treated wood. If in doubt touch the wood to the blade before you turn on the saw and the diagnostic lights beside the switch will flash if it will trigger the blade. If it does, put the saw in bypass mode and make the cuts or don't use that material. When you turn off the saw it returns to the safe mode unless you bypass it again. Yes the brake needs to be replaced if triggered but if it triggered by touching flesh then you send the chip from the brake back to SawStop and they will send you a new one. Yup your blade is pretty much hooped but if you don't trigger the brake you never spend any more. You guys seem to think they pop off all the time. They don't. Go to the SawStop web page download the free manuals and read about it yourselves.

http://www.sawstop.ca/support/manuals/i ... binet-saw/

If you don't want to use a saw with a blade brake then don't buy one. It you have to use one that somebody else owns and don't like the brake then run the saw in bypass mode. It doesn't matter to me. They are your fingers. Do what you like. There will be older saws around long after we all kick the bucket even if the brakes are mandated so don't worry about it.

I've got a bathroom to clean so I'll leave you all to your debate.

Be safe
Pete

 

[Cheshirechappie]

The Heath and Safety Executive produce a number of notes for guidance, the one applicable to woodworking circular saws is - http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf

As the reader will see, the requirements for the safe use of such saws in industrial and commercial settings are several; the fitting of a suitable riving knife and crown guard, the latter to be solid and properly adjusted to suit the work in hand, and the provision of a brake to bring the saw to rest in less than 10 seconds after switching off. There is also a requirement that operators shall be properly trained in safe use (an employer commits an offence in law if he fails to), including the use of push sticks.

Those requirements have come about as follows. In the mid 19th century, Parliament passed a series of Factory Acts, which among other provisions required all serious accidents at work to be formally reported and investigated by Factory Inspectors. Analysis of accumulated reports showed that circular saws caused a lot of injuries, so regulations were put in place to reduce those. The riving knife and crown guard were made mandatory many years ago (early part of the 20th century, possibly), the blade brake is more recent (1990s ?) and came about because a high proportion of saw accidents happened after the saw was switched off, but before it had come to rest.

In British safety practice, preference is given to simple and reliable 'no moving parts' solutions rather than 'technological' ones. If safety can be improved by designing in fixed items like riving knives, that would be regarded as preferable to devices relying on sensors (which can degrade and fail to operate).

The above applies to health and safety AT WORK. What private citizens choose to do on their own property is their own business - if, in the privacy of your own shed, you want to run a circular saw without a riving knife and crown guard, you can. You might be liable for any damage you may cause to others, though.

Clearly, North American health and safety at work legislation and practice is different to UK practice, so devices like SawStop may make more sense there. However, in the UK commercial environment, it may not be regarded as any advance on existing provisions.