private charge notice

[Sandyn]

liability to pay the fine as the keeper of the vehicle if the actual driver at the time is not willing to admit they were the one who parked the car there

Yes, I fully understand that, which is why I am trying to find a way out for the driver. There are four people insured to drive the car. I could ask the question, who was driving, but then I couldn't honestly say that I don't know. I am simply following the PCN company's procedure and answering honestly. One of the options on the company web site was on what grounds are you refusing to pay. The only honest answer I could give was that I was not the driver. They have not specifically asked me who the driver was. I am under no legal obligation to divulge that info if I knew.
The car had a open permit to park in that area. It was issued by the parking company. I have just noticed it is a day permit only, so they may have issued the wrong permit. The more I look into it, the more I sense something doesn't add up.

 

[Distinterior]

......I am under no legal obligation to divulge that info if I knew.

I'm sorry Sandyn,....but I believe you ARE legally obliged to divulge that information. As the keeper of the vehicle, it is YOUR responsibility to find out who parked the car where they did.
By failing to do so, would mean that YOU would be liable for paying the fine as the registered keeper of the vehicle.

The circumstances of the parking incident itself, as valid as you may feel those circumstances were, has no bearing on the validity of their claim that you are ultimately responsible.

 

[silentsam]

The circumstances are that the the car was parked at an adjacent block of flats because the resident had to give up their parking while work was being done on their block of flats (cladding). A permit was issued and displayed, to allow parking on that street, but at a different place to where the car was parked. This was not easy to decipher from the permit documentation. No diagrams only block numbers.. The same company monitor the parking at all flats in the area, so the same sign is up everywhere. It was reasonable for the driver to assume that they could park there, because the parking sign did not clearly identify that there were in fact different parking rules for different blocks of flats and there is nothing to easily identify the blocks of flats. The parking sign was not clear enough in this instance. Each sign should say which block of flats that particular sign applies to. I think this is reasonable grounds to appeal, but it's the driver who has to do that.

Either the driver at the time has to come forward with this defence or you have to pay the fine.

 

[Stan]

English/Welsh law and Scots law broadly follow the same principles, but often differ in the fine detail of the wording. Lots of cases are won and lost on that fine wording, however.

Under English/Welsh law if the offence under consideration falls under the Road Traffic act 1988, the plod can require the keeper to divulge the details of the driver. ( A T78 iirc ). Failure to do so is an offence. A reasonable defence would be that there is a pool of authorised drivers and the keeper has no way of knowing. Scots law may be different, and you would have to do some research.

However, the fact that a private parking firm is involved suggests to me that parking has been "decriminalised" ( not strictly accurate, because it was never a crime, just an offence ), and now comes under civil law. If so, the police will not be interested because they have no jurisdiction. You will need to research this also.

If it was me, I would start by making an appeal to the better sides of the possible drivers asking the one to own up. If nobody comes forward I would let it be known that my generosity has run out because somebody has dropped me in the soft and smelly, and henceforth nobody can have use of the car. You never know, the innocent parties might persuade the culprit to come forwards. If/when they do, I would get them to identify themself to the parking company. After that, I would file the matter under S.E.P. ( "someone else's problem").

If the above generates no joy, I would consider carefully whether or not I have a strong enough case to fight them and win. If I fought and lost it could potentially cost thousands in legal fees etc. Failure to pay such a debt could result in bailiffs seizing goods ... the possibilities could be horrendous.

Round here, some lawyers offer a fixed price one-off consultation. You present what you have and they tell you whether you should fight or roll over. You lose the consultation fee of course, but this is nothing to what you would lose if you are flogging a dead horse. This is what I would do if I wanted to fight.

 

[silentsam]

Round here, some lawyers offer a fixed price one-off consultation. You present what you have and they tell you whether you should fight or roll over. You lose the consultation fee of course, but this is nothing to what you would lose if you are flogging a dead horse. This is what I would do if I wanted to fight.

A consultation with a lawyer - even a cheap one - generally would costs as much as just paying the fine.

 

[Stan]

Indeed it would.

I would have to decide how much the principle was worth to me.

 

[D_W]

I would imagine the law was changed because there were too many situations where someone got out of tickets by saying they didn't know who the driver was.

In the US, a judge or local magistrate would say "you can either use the appeals process by finding the driver involved, or you can pay the fine as the owner of the car. If you aren't the driver, you can't issue an appeal, that's the rules"

If you said "i'm not legally obligated to find the driver", they would say "that's right, you don't need to because you're legally obligated as the owner of the car, so if you don't want to find the driver, that's fine, you're responsible".

 

[D_W]

(we have red light cameras here. for "safety"). People used to have a habit of driving through red lights (Sometimes during the day with disastrous results, but 100 times more often if driving in the middle of the night where there is no traffic and not wanting to wait).

The camera snaps a license plate picture with a flash at night, the company running the camera finds the plate number and issues a ticket to the owner of the car. The owner is responsible.

This has gone over like fahrt in church (get the german joke with cars there? hah!....fahren?) as the for profit company keeps some and gives some to the municipality. Dirty pool.

But the owners is responsible, even if the smudgy picture makes out someone of a different gender driving, it's the law. Of course, these days, a skirt in a picture with a male car owner may not mean anything as the owner may have just felt the need to wear a skirt that day.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

You are conflating two seperate arguments, 1/ whether you as registered owner should pay, and 2/ whether the fine was justified in the first place. Try to deal with one at a time.

 

[Skydivermel]

Sandyn,

Go here FightBack Forums and follow the links for private parking tickets and clamping.

Read thru a few posts first and they will help you out.

I've used this site 5 times and never paid a ticket.

 

[Sandyn]

Go here FightBack Forums and follow the links for private parking tickets and clamping.

Read thru a few posts first and they will help you out.

I've used this site 5 times and never paid a ticket.

Thank you!!!! Very useful

 

[Stevejmon]

Thank you!!!! Very useful

I have read about a few of these cases and they are most often not entirely correct and can be fought.

The most important thing, it seems, is do not admit who was driving at the time. Once that is conceded it becomes harder to fight.

Good luck.

 

[artie]

A couple of years ago SWMBO parked on a carpark equipped with number plate recognition cameras.

Upon leaving she paid the £1 fee but entered one digit of her number plate incorrectly.

So shortly she received a demand for say £30, I don't remember exactly. or £60 if not paid within a certain period.

Wonder of wonders she still had the receipt, so she scanned it and emailed it with an explanation. They were having none of it, wouldn't back down and more or less said it didn't matter that she paid the fee but that she did not fulfil her side of the contract, which required her to enter the reg number correctly.
So SWMBO sat down and typed a letter to the head office filling all the details , times dates etc and finished up with " I SWMBO declare I am willing and able to compensate you fully for any loss or damage either personal or corporate upon proof of claim.

They never answered just sent their same cow clap letter twice more. She replied with the exact letter twice and we haven't heard from them since.

 

[danst96]

PCNs are issued by private companies and are not law binding. The only way they can pursue the charge is through commercial courts along the line of an unpaid debt for a "service" you owe them for. I have heard and read in a few places that some people ignore everything from them because ultimately the cost to pursue £100 through court is not worth it to them. Whether this works and is true I am not sure.

 

[PhilipL]

Some years ago I parked near the eye hospital in Edinburgh. The street was empty and I had a blue badge (for my mother). Got a ticket because I was slightly over white lines into a motorcycle bay - though the lines were on cobbles and very hard to see. After a bit of discussion (they were not going to give in) I looked at the ticket I had received and saw reference to a piece of legislation. It turned out that they were citing legislation for parking in the City of London. I pointed this out and they quickly dropped the fine. I should have gone public at the time (10 years ago?) and seen how they dealt with all the fines they had served with those badly produced tickets.

 

[Rorschach]

PCNs are issued by private companies and are not law binding. The only way they can pursue the charge is through commercial courts along the line of an unpaid debt for a "service" you owe them for. I have heard and read in a few places that some people ignore everything from them because ultimately the cost to pursue £100 through court is not worth it to them. Whether this works and is true I am not sure.

That used to be the case, they would often just let them go but changes in the law and their techniques mean they win much more often now and I think they can even reclaim some of their costs. They have staff who are paid to do this job so the actual costs don't matter to them. Best not to ignore them especially if you are indeed in the wrong.

 

[danst96]

That used to be the case, they would often just let them go but changes in the law and their techniques mean they win much more often now and I think they can even reclaim some of their costs. They have staff who are paid to do this job so the actual costs don't matter to them. Best not to ignore them especially if you are indeed in the wrong.

Yes it may be cheaper not to ignore. I got one last year and tried the ignore technique. The issue here though is my vehicle is a company car so when I wasnt responding they simply passed the fine (increased amount as well because it had gone past the 14 day deadline) to my company instead who then subsequently paid it without question and docked it off my wage lol. I am not advising you try the above, just what I found out previously.

 

[danst96]

Yes it may be cheaper not to ignore. I got one last year and tried the ignore technique. The issue here though is my vehicle is a company car so when I wasnt responding they simply passed the fine (increased amount as well because it had gone past the 14 day deadline) to my company instead who then subsequently paid it without question and docked it off my wage lol. I am not advising you try the above, just what I found out previously.

Might I add, I was in the no park zone for a total of 10 minutes (as long as it takes to eat a McDonalds burger). Cost me £220.

 

[Glitch]

Sandyn,

Go here FightBack Forums and follow the links for private parking tickets and clamping.

Read thru a few posts first and they will help you out.

I've used this site 5 times and never paid a ticket.

+1 for this. Very helpful guys on here to help with private and council tickets.

I've used the site many times, mostly on behalf of family and friends.

Went to London Tribunal a few years ago to help a family friend.
Lost the case and they got a parking ticket during the hearing .
Successfully appealed the ticket and the council had to change the parking signs!

 

[Rorschach]

Might I add, I was in the no park zone for a total of 10 minutes (as long as it takes to eat a McDonalds burger). Cost me £220.

Ouch!

I think with a swift reply to the charge and maybe a little white lie you could have got away with that one. Something along the lines of the stop being an emergency?

A friend was fined for being in a car park for 10 minutes longer than the specified time, they had broken down. Luckily they had the foresight to take pictures of the breakdown van etc so when the fine came they challenged it. At first I think the company refused but when pushed that my friend was happy to go to court they backed down quite rightly.