pricing up....how much profit?

UKworkshop.co.uk

Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Yorkie

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2009
Messages
53
Reaction score
0
Location
Overlooking Cardiff
Hi all

i'm looking to set-up my own workshop to produce all types of windows and doors....throwing in a few tables now and then and also making wardrobe doors for some of the fiiting out jobs i do.

I currently get windows and doors made by a joiner i've known for a while but i really want to make my own.....i used to work as a joiner for about 4-5 years and then went self-employed as a carpenter 14 months ago.....which is going great.

So, if i posted some window sizes on here that i've had priced, would you help working out how much they would actually cost to make as i'd like to see how much i'd make from producing them and so help me budgeting for a business plan etc.....not to borrow money from a bank, i have a stash of cash to buy some machines.

Cheers, Mike
 
Surely if you have worked as a joiner you will have a good idea of the time required to make these items and know what materials went into them. Just add what your hourly workshop rate is into the equasion and its easy enough to work out the cost.

Jason
 
a fair point and completly correct.

However, the joinery i worked in was very automated and pretty much every machine was programable....the moulder was a MASSIVE £250k machine and once you planed up your timber, sent it through the 4-sider the boss would put the pieces through the moulder 2 at a time which then created the tenons and moulded the pieces all in one go at the touch of a button........a little quicker than i would be able to do it with the machines i intend to get!

Just looking for a rough guide to profit to see how long it would take to make my money back on my investment.
 
Thats my point, without knowing your set-up, and what you expect to earn how can anyone say what the item will cost. What may take one workshop 4hrs to make may take another 2 days.

The only thing you can do is subtract the known costs eg timber, ironmongery and then you are left with a figure that will be your labour, overheads and hopefully profit, the first two of these are particular to you and to some extent so is the amount of profit you want to make.

a little quicker than i would be able to do it with the machines i intend to get!

I thought you said you had got all your machines :?

Jason
 
Yorkie":8ehsw6nq said:
Hi all

i'm looking to set-up my own workshop to produce all types of windows and doors....throwing in a few tables now and then and also making wardrobe doors for some of the fiiting out jobs i do.

I currently get windows and doors made by a joiner i've known for a while but i really want to make my own.....i used to work as a joiner for about 4-5 years and then went self-employed as a carpenter 14 months ago.....which is going great.

So, if i posted some window sizes on here that i've had priced, would you help working out how much they would actually cost to make as i'd like to see how much i'd make from producing them and so help me budgeting for a business plan etc.....not to borrow money from a bank, i have a stash of cash to buy some machines.

Cheers, Mike

Hi Mike

I agree with the other posts in that it's impossible to say as each setup differs. How long is a piece of string?
The only sure way is to produce a test window and calculate ALL costs and time. This should be a worst scenario (excuding unforseen production problems) as you will get slicker with experience and therefore cheaper.

There are a few things you should consider first IMO:-

Why do you want to do it? You say your business "is going great" which suggests that you are busy. I assume that means fitting what you currently buy in. You should be marking up those items and therefore making a profit on them , if not - why not! :?

Are you seeking to change direction as if you're in the workshop manufacturing, you won't be out fitting or would you employ someone to do that job?

If you aren't busy then it's a different story. just be careful as the grass is always greener etc.

I take on many varied projects and am lucky enough to pick and choose. I buy in my kitchen cabinets as I found a company who can provide quality units cheaper than I can make and apart from the profit I get on the cabinets, I am making money doing other things. I sometimes buy in doors for the same reason.

Important thing is always to look at the big picture but remain focussed on your main objective IMHO - just need to be sure what that objective really is.

cheers Bob
 
You need to tot up all your overheads for a year, add in the money you expect to earn for yourself, add on £10k for good measure, and divide the result by the number of billable hours in a year.


So, if your overheads are £10k and you need to earn £30k, the total is £50k.

The number of billable hours in a year is a lot less than you think it is - nearer 1000 than 2000 - so work on 1250.

That means you have to charge £40 per hour for your labour plus the cost of materials with a margin built in for wastage.

You can quickly see why tradesmen charging £200 per day are not being greedy - just realistic!
 
Over the last few years i have made less and less in my workshop, for standard work i find it is usually cheaper to buy it in. With most joinery shops being quiet at the moment i can get most work done quite quickly and at good rates

Having the overheads of a workshop makes it hard to compete with people working from the back of a van on price. If you do a lot of specialist jobs that would be hard to get produced elsewhere that is when your own shop is a real bonus. Without knowing more about your buissness it difficult to comment, But for the majority of the time i think i would be better off financially without a workshop but for convenance i would miss it
 
A bit on principles drawn from another life.

Pricing and costing are not the same thing.

The price you can charge is in in the end set by your market and has nothing to do with your costs and inputs - more to the point by the perceptions of the market. Competition sets prices pretty much directly in the case of (commodity) bread and butter stuff where there are lots of alternative sources, and indirectly in the case of stuff that's unique, but which usually will still have some perceived value projected off other similar items, reputation of the maker, bragging rights/exclusivity and so on.

The words can vary a bit - but perceived product excellence/attractiveness, price, quality, and service are usually regarded as the factors determining how a competitive market rates a supplier's offering.

While you may get away with it now and then the chickens tend to come home to roost if you overcharge for whatever blend of the above you are offering - so that by and large you can't hope to stay in business that way.

That's not to say that a fast mouth and and effective marketing approach can't manipulate perceptions.

Cost is what it actually costs you to make the piece. It's often divided into direct labour and material (quantity used per unit of product @ actual cost), indirect cost items like marketing, energy, heating, maintenance/repair, depreciation/replacement costs, waste disposal (stuff where the quantity used increases with more production, but only roughly in proportion. e.g. you have to run a fair amount of heating come what may), and overheads. Overheads are fixed costs you are committed to meeting unrelated to how much business you do - e.g. machine repayments, cost of your premises, cost of insurance (if fixed regardless of output), professional fees etc)

Direct costs are fairly easily handled and are down to what you pay for the inputs (to yourself, others and your suppliers), indirects and overheads are tricky as they hang around out of sight in the background, but still have to be paid.

It may be in practice in a small woodworking business that indirect costs are more conveniently treated as overheads - i.e. they don't vary enough with volume output to justify tracking them separately. But care is needed on decisions that take stuff out of scrutiny like that, and the vice versa may be just as true - costs that look fixed rarely are. (e.g. the rent is fixed, but it may be possible to sub let some shop space if you get a bit slack)

It's common to add some % extra to your hourly rates, and likewise to your material costs to recover indirects/overheads - but this method only works reliably if you actually sell your expected volume of business at the budgeted price and is an obsolete practice.

It almost never happens that things go to plan, so its far better to use methods that regularly extract key figures and keep them in your view.

Many a business has found too late that it actually was loss making when at the end of the year it turns out that these costs (a) have not been recovered due to reduced sales, or (b) had increased on the quiet.

The other common problem scenario is that if your business shrinks it's essential to find ways to manage your indirect and overhead costs to maintain their proportion to your direct costs or you risk ending up either trying to overcharge (if the problem is known), or losing money. (if it's not)

Profit/margins are the other factor. It's not uncommon to see margins added in to labour rate, material costs and the like in a similar way ('butter accounting') - but strictly speaking this is bad practice because it also (a) moves the issue out of sight, and (b) inevitably results in loss of contact with what's going on in the market.

A better mindset is to try to always know what your costs are (in each category, at your present levels of output), to know what margin you need to make, and to regularly review how you are doing.

This separation of costs and pricing, and the splitting of costs into categories (along with actively managing the whole ball of wax ongoing) helps to avoid getting hung up on stuff. Like ending up mindlessly pitching a price regardless of the market or your costs - e.g. because my accountant says so. (.....that was a year ago before x,y,z happened)

It sounds complicated, and certainly doesn't happen without a good system. A well designed spread sheet should go a long way to automating it though - so that it becomes mostly about disciplined entry of income and expenditure as it happens.

Even if you don't get it all set up that well it's a good model for clear thinking about costs, pricing and the market.

The problem in the end is that you basically can't buck the the market. (although as above you can over time sometimes change its perceptions) If the market is forcing you to sell at prices that you can't survive on, then it becomes a case of adjusting your offering and/or your costs to get to somewhere that works for you.

Failing that it's tone down your expectations or close the business time - but even then the sooner you know it losing the better.....
 
ondablade":jaexgdoo said:
The price you can charge is in in the end set by your market and has nothing to do with your costs and inputs

Totally agree Ian.

It is important that you know what you're overheads are, and how much profit you are making. But don't let that be the sole dictator of how much you should be charging.

For example.

I've just finished fitting a kitchen for a customer. I knew that I could supply and fit for £4,300 and return £250/day for installation/design. But I also knew that for similair kitchens the customer had been quoted over £6k by big firms with big showrooms, fancy salesmen and big overheads. I also knew that the budget was £5k.

So guess what. My quote was £5k. Customer was happy, and I made an extra £700.

Bottom line - price the job at what it's worth. If that's less than you are able to work for (ie the daily rate calculation Brad refers to above), reconsider doing the job.

Cheers

Karl
 
Karl":1758wh9i said:
ondablade":1758wh9i said:
The price you can charge is in in the end set by your market and has nothing to do with your costs and inputs

Totally agree Ian.

I also agree; this is why it is important to choose carefully what kind of work you aim to attract in to your business.

'Commodity' items such as bog standard doors and windows (or cabinets) are very difficult to make a profit from because bigger competitors with huge economies of scale are able to bury you on price. The small carpenter or cabinetmaker really has to focus these days on bespoke work which the big guys either can't be bothered with or can't undercut you on.

The price is set by the market - in other words by your competitors. So find a market in which you have few competitors.

But be careful. There may be no competitors because there is no market!

:lol:
 
The last 3 posts are absolutely spot on :!:

* Price the job properly and remember that profit isn't a dirty word.

* Always keep your eye on the ball and monitor your costs and targets constantly.

* Be flexible - is you need to change direction or emphasis then be sure you can do it quickly.

* Try to keep a wide customer base and not rely too much on one or very few custmers which leaves you vulnerable (Woolworths syndrome).

* Produce quality work and guard your reputation vigorously.

* And above all - make sure you get paid on time !!!!

e.g. I recently fitted a kitchen, bought in carcases and doors,Granite and sinks etc elsewhere and manufactured a little myself. I added value by offering "special" cupboard around boiler and some little individual touches that the big boys couldn't do.
My total invoice was £16000 which was £1500 less than my nearest competitor for a better kitchen. My customer was delighted and I made nearly £6500 for 8 days work.
I've since had another from her recommendation. so that's good business all round IMO


Not all jobs pay so well but do it right and you'll be successful.

cheers

Bob
 

Latest posts

Back
Top