pricing and quotes

[colinmc8]

Hi all,

I'm suprised there isn't a section in forums for asking opinions on pricing and quotes. For me, it is definitely the hardest part of the job.
Recently I made a pair of balcony doors, I had the figure of 700€ in mind. Then I asked a carpenter I was working with how much he would charge? He said at least double! Turned out they didn't want pine, so making them from cedar I charged 1830€
Obviously different areas would have different rates, but I always struggle when it comes to doing quotes. Right now I am doing a quote to install a kitchen. I also am to make the doors and drawer fronts from ply. The carcasses will come from IKEA which I would have to assemble.
Anyone have some advice on how to price this job? Materials is easy. What I don't like is trying to figure out how long its going to take.
Sorry if I went on a bit.

 

[joiner_sim]

Hello,

As you've said materials is easy, just charge for what you order. Labour though, you need to decide how much per hour you want to earn. Then I'd imagine if you're doing this professionally (being paid for it) then you're used to the work and you should be able to estimate how long it takes to knock up a carcass, make door fronts etc..... So just add all those times up individually and then that should give you a realistic amount for your labour costs.

I'm not self-employed myself, but I'd have thought anyone working for themselves would surely know this is basic stuff in terms of how to price.

 

[MrA]

It depends if you're going to charge a day rate or an hourly rate, I'm self employed (engineering) and I charge by the day between £350-£500 depending on the assignment.

I suppose it depends on how much you feel your time is worth, the quality of your work, your reputation and how busy you are. Not a simple answer really.

 

[kostello]

you need a spread sheet

you can itemise everything down to the smallest item.

then once you put the valuesinitworks it all out......

et voila.

 

[colinmc8]

Firstly, thank you all for the replies.

you need a spread sheet

you can itemise everything down to the smallest item.

This is what i used to do, and I was doing things way too cheap (for my liking!)

How much you want, how much you think you deserve, how much value are you adding to someone's life, how much, how much, how much! That's what just drives me mad! Anyway on with the calculating.

 

[colinmc8]

Ok, I´ve been scribbling down lots of numbers trying to feel more at ease with the prices.
What I would like to do is post the plans of the kitchen, describe the job and ask you gentlemen or ladies perhaps if you think my quote is reasonable.
The work involves, Knocking up Ikea carcases (happy days!)
Purchasing ply door and drawer fronts and end panels, running a beveled edge to be used instead of handles and then varnished.
Installing the kitchen.
Oh and as you may see in the drawing the base units are to be raised up so the worktop is 1m. (not sure how to do this yet, I dont think you can get longer cabinet feet in Ikea? any ideas or info on this would be appreciated)

I´ve estimated material cost: ply, varnish and hinges at around 500€
The total cost including materials comes to 5750€

The units and appliances are being supplied by the client.

So what do you think? too high? too low?
I don´t want you to spend any time calculating, just from a glance and how much a kitchen this size/spec.

Thanks alot!

 

[kostello]

i fitted an ikea kitchen last year for some friends................................

the units and appilances were about £3000...........................

i've just looked up my fitting costs was just over £5000 inc all the tiling, plumbing etc....... for 95hrs work associated materials and 2 lengths of oak worktop.........

for some things i do look at what the final cost comes out as and think: it can't cost that much???!??!!!!!

but if i've put evertything in the spreadsheet properly thenumber at the bottom is always correct.

 

[jasonB]

Is this a dry fit? thats one where all the plumbing and electrics are done, you just fit the units, tops & appliances and then someone else comes in and tiles, decorates etc. Or are you doing all these things as well.

Rather than tell us what you have costed it at let us know how much time(days will do) you have allowed in as the rate of pay is likely to vary around the country and even move around Europe. Also what facilities do you have? a decent panel saw and spray booth for the fronts or will you be using a handheld circular saw and paint brush?

Yes you can get longer legs but not from Ikea, the other option will be to make a plinth and set the units onto that.

Jason

 

[colinmc8]

It's a dry fit. Just what I mentioned in the op. I will have the ply cut to size from my supplier, then I'll use my own saw (Makita flip saw) to rip the bevel. I've got a spray gun and compressor, but no spray booth. I was actually going to use Dulux diamond glaze and that doesn't spray well, so I was going to use a roller.

 

[Lons]

you need a spread sheet. you can itemise everything down to the smallest item.

This is what i used to do, and I was doing things way too cheap (for my liking!)

Hi Colin

I don't understand that comment :? the only way the results of a spreadsheet can be wrong is if you enter incorrect figures or don't know how to use it.

I always use one and have a template which lists categories for materials which speeds up the process and most importantly ensures that I don't miss anything I use on a job. IMO if you don't have an organised method, you risk losing money on the smaller items you might forget. They add up and have to be replaced so need to be included in your costs. I did an exercise years ago where I counted the fixings and screws I used from my stock just fitting a kitchen and was shocked when I costed replacement.

I enter all materials, fuel etc. which gives me an accurate cost base to which I add my % mark up / plus a % for overheads and then calculate my time and labour making especially sure I don't underestimate that. if I'm comfortable with the final figure then fine - if not then I adjust it and it's then up to my customer to accept or otherwise. Once submitted, I won't discount.

Also make sure your written estimate / quote is detailed so that any additional work can be charged seperately. In my experience the "while you're here can you" factor is a very common occurrence. e.g. I've just finished a kitchen and changed 2 single sockets for doubles, made a shelving unit and laid a laminate floor as well as fixing his bathroom tap. Easy to be accommodating and not charge but no good for your bank balance.

It will get easier with experience but you need to ask yourself whether your customer is genuinely prepared to pay for a decent quality job or do they want a RR for the price of a mini :roll:

Cheers
Bob

 

[colinmc8]

Thanks Bob, that was quite helpful. What I mean by the comment about itemising everything down to the smallest item is I was trying to keep prices as low as possible resulting in prices way too low for a normal profit.
Now what I try to do is stand back and see the job as a whole as well as calculating the materials and labour costs. Some people would pay 15,000 for a kitchen, and I know I could do it for 10,000. This is down to maybe a company charging more for extra expenses. But if I can do the same job or better, should I charge 5,000 less?

 

[goldeneyedmonkey]

or do they want a RR for the price of a mini :roll:

-what this mini?

Cheers _Dan

 

[milkman]

I'm still learning but I started off with a basic premise. "How much does it cost for me to live day to day?" I had a good stating point as I used to work on salary the man and had a set gross figure which I could look at and decide whether I was comfortable on it or not.
Then I simply divided that by the number of days I wanted to work and hours to work in and that'll give you a rough rate for your labour. Factor in illness/lean periods.
You have to be careful in your expectations, the market decrees that certain jobs won't pay as much as others and guess what; woodworking doesn’t pay as much as brain surgery or crashing the economy with short-term badly thought-out investment vehicles (rant avoided, calm, calm).
A good attitude to have is that you won't get this right first off and the error will more often than not go against you but there you go.
You also have to consider the work rate that seasoned pros can achieve and compete with that. If you take longer that’s your problem and at least it encourages you to speed up!
I can;t comment on kitchens but a pair of alcove cabinets came to £1700. Looking at another forum member it should have been £1700 per alcove! Que sera sera : )
I'd take whatever figure you've got and add 50% and open the proceedings with "what's your budget? You need to bee looking at €****. If the client doesn't faint or ring off then you have reason to spend time (which = money) preparing an estimate or even a quotation.
As I said, its bound to be wrong but you gotta start somewhere.

 

[colinmc8]

5u

I'd take whatever figure you've got and add 50%

That's sounds kinda extreme. This job is for an architect firm. It's not a case of asking what's your budget, they tell me what they want, exactly. That's what i need to price, can anyone give a too high or to low comment on the price 5750€

 

[tomatwark]

Hi Colin

Reading this thread I think what you should do before anything else is work out your fixed costs, such as workshop rent, van costs, heat, light etc.

Also don't forget your own personal living costs.

Once you have that figure per month times it by 12 and then divide it by 46, this allows you to have a break for christmas etc, when as unlike an employee you will not be getting paid.

Then divide it by 40 hours a week.

This is the figure you need to stand still.

Then add a bit on to allow you to go forward and also another bit for upgrading and replacing kit.

This should give an hourly rate.


Set a spread sheet up.

When pricing work out the materials, and remember to add at least 20% to the cost.

When pricing time I always add extra on, depending on the job I will either add 50% or if it is something I have done, before will add on a day or so to allow for interuptions, machines breaking etc.

And remember to allow for delivering the finished piece, having a cuppa with the customer and hopefully discussing the next job.

Tom

 

[colinmc8]

That's really helpful Tom. They don't offer you tea or coffee here on Spain! So I can deduct that lol. Do you think at a glance (imagine you were the client) this price is ok?

 

[tomatwark]

I would say it is probably not to far off the mark for the UK, but it really depends on the locality.

The same job in London for example would be more expensive than up here as the costs of running a business are higher.


Tom

 

[colinmc8]

I would say it is probably not to far off the mark for the UK, but it really depends on the locality.

The same job in London for example would be more expensive than up here as the costs of running a business are higher.


Tom

Much appreciated Tom, This is for Barcelona very central.

 

[jasonB]

Thats why I asked to know how much time you have allowed for the job.

The way I see it in very rough terms

1 day cut chamfers, drill for hinges and sand all edges
1 day apply finish to ply
2 days assemble carcases and fit
1 day appliances and worktops
1 day hang doors, fit draw fronts etc

So lets say 6 days

5750 less materials ply fixings etc say 5000 euros

thats 833 euros a day either you charge a lot or work too slowly.

Let us know what your breakdown is.

 

[colinmc8]

You must work very long days! There's a couple of things I would change in that breakdown
First point I gave 1.5 days as I would sand faces and knock off arrises.
Then two days at least for finishing.
The rest of the points are all very optimistic imo.
I not fast but I am time efficient. Also I add on time to to pick up materials, and deliver the finished product.
I used to calculate things as how fast can I do this...I eventually realised I needed to be more realistic and allow for real life situations, interruptions, waiting for plumbers or electricians to sort something out etc.

Thanks for all the feedback so far, now to get some work done!