President Elect's 'top team'

[sploo]

...but he's just become the president elect of the most powerful nation in the world, even winning the popular vote so I would call that an achievement in itself, wouldn't you?
Anyway I'm sure you and others will not look for anything remotely positive with regard to Trump so it's really pointless debating with you, so as I've said previously we should wait and see!

Like Farage he's a great entertainer that inspires and captivates people. It's definitely a skill, and one that's brought both of them success.

Apparently Ted Bundy was charming and charismatic too. He also excelled in his chosen "field".

 

[ey_tony]

Why should we? He is a vile person who has been shown numerous times by his own words that he is a liar and has disgusting behaviour towards women, including claiming he is entitled to 'grab them by the ...', boasted that he was allowed to go and watch the 16yr old beauty pagent girls changing rooms, said numerous times that he'd date his own daughter if he wasn't related, and is a convicted rapist amongst 100's of other things.

Jimmy Saville was pretty popular back in the day, should we just look at the positive things he did? Epstein was a pretty good business man, surely he isn't all bad... right?

I'm not against many of the true republican ideals e.g. Encouraging strong families and respect for law and order. The trouble is Trump does not give a ..... about any of those as long as he is making money. He'll say and do anything for power.

So around 80 million people, the people who voted for him are all wrong? OK!
Which world do you actually live in...do you for instance live in the South West of England or America?

So which is it ...do you live in America or South West of England?

 

[sploo]

Okay let me spell it out. @RobinBHM blames the state of Canada's economy on Covid but the blame for the state of the UK economy goes to Brexit, Canada has a socialist cabal member as leader and so can't possibly be to blame. Over here, Brexit was the fault of nasty Tories, idiots and racists so it can't have been anything to do with Covid.

An admittedly only quick and lazy scroll back through a few pages of this thread hasn't highlighted a post from Robin that claims the UK ills are all the fault of Brexit and nothing to do with Covid . Link or post number?

 

[ey_tony]

You could, but only if you don't actually understand the difference between movements (MAGA, Brexit, religion) and economic/political philosophies such as Socialism, Communism, and Capitalism.

All are cults with titles.

 

[sploo]

All are cults with titles.

Yes Tony. Absolutely Tony.

 

[Jacob]

Okay let me spell it out. @RobinBHM blames the state of Canada's economy on Covid but the blame for the state of the UK economy goes to Brexit, Canada has a socialist cabal member as leader

The socialist cabal must have been elected by an even bigger socialist cabal; a majority of the electorate!

.... Over here, Brexit was the fault of nasty Tories, idiots and racists

Agree, though I always think it was more of a general protest vote rather than with any more specific objectives.

so it can't have been anything to do with Covid.

Covid didn't help either. Nor did Johnson, Truss and other tory lunatics.

 

[ey_tony]

Okay let me spell it out. @RobinBHM blames the state of Canada's economy on Covid but the blame for the state of the UK economy goes to Brexit, Canada has a socialist cabal member as leader and so can't possibly be to blame. Over here, Brexit was the fault of nasty Tories, idiots and racists so it can't have been anything to do with Covid.

Don't don't waste your time arguing, you're up against an extreme fringe element of always-correct fanatics who will only bring you down to their level if you allow it to happen.
Just looking at the time of day, it's a bad one because for rational debate as most of their carers will likely be having lunch and won't be able to monitor them!

 

[mudman]

An admittedly only quick and lazy scroll back through a few pages of this thread hasn't highlighted a post from Robin that claims the UK ills are all the fault of Brexit and nothing to do with Covid . Link or post number?

I said Robin blames things on Covid for Canada's problems, I didn't explicitly say he blames the UK's ills on Brexit. There are lots of posts where others do and I bet he shares that opinion.
And no, I'm not going trawling for links. That seems to be the default rebuttal argument here, "Show me the links!"

 

[paulrbarnard]

So around 80 million people, the people who voted for him are all wrong? OK!
Which world do you actually live in...do you for instance live in the South West of England or America?

So which is it ...do you live in America or South West of England?

What’s wrong with the South West of England? People here not able to think for themselves?

 

[sploo]

I said Robin blames things on Covid for Canada's problems, I didn't explicitly say he blames the UK's ills on Brexit. There are lots of posts where others do and I bet he shares that opinion.
And no, I'm not going trawling for links. That seems to be the default rebuttal argument here, "Show me the links!"

I think you've added 2 and 2 and got 5 (and been angry about it).

You've said that Canada's problems are the fault of the government. Robin's pointed out that the available data ties the issues with factors such as Covid.

The UK's ills are down to Brexit and Covid, and again there's plenty of data to support it.

Tony seems to think that presenting evidence and data (when it disagrees with his personal opinion) is the actions of an "extreme fringe element of always-correct fanatics". If putting forward actual evidence is considered fringe, well, I'm happy to be fringe.

 

[mudman]

The socialist cabal must have been elected by an even bigger socialist cabal; a majority of the electorate!

But currently in a minority government so I guess not.

<snip> Other lefty gibberish </>

 

[John Brown]

I said Robin blames things on Covid for Canada's problems, I didn't explicitly say he blames the UK's ills on Brexit. There are lots of posts where others do and I bet he shares that opinion.
And no, I'm not going trawling for links. That seems to be the default rebuttal argument here, "Show me the links!"

Yes, because otherwise anybody can claim anybody said anything!
Oh no! I'm not going trawling for links!

And yet, when Tony says he's never asked anyone how many businesses they've run, and I link to his post where he did exactly that, he conveniently ignores it.
It's pathetic really.

 

[RobinBHM]

Okay let me spell it out. @RobinBHM blames the state of Canada's economy on Covid but the blame for the state of the UK economy goes to Brexit, Canada has a socialist cabal member as leader and so can't possibly be to blame. Over here, Brexit was the fault of nasty Tories, idiots and racists so it can't have been anything to do with Covid.

Please avoid strawman arguments

the UK economy suffered badly from covid but the evidence also shows the UK economy suffered further because of brexit, it took a harder hit and it took longer to recover to pre covid levels, mostly because the UK left the Single Market and faced higher trade barriers at a time when global supply chains were damaged.

It is possible to show that costs increased due to leaving the single market are distinct from post covid inflation because the UK now faces permanent increases in non tariff barriers (such RoO checks, SpS controls, cabotage restrictions, transit documents, customs declarations) all of which have impacted UK businesses importing and exporting to our largest trade partner, the EU

If you want evidence of those cost increases over and above covid, I can provide them




Justin Trudeau is not a "socialist cabal member", he may be more progressive than the free market neo liberal Conservatives and Republicans but he isnt anything like a "socialist".

Unfortunately we see these tribal tropes being pushed, anybody not right wing are referred to as "socialists" "commies" "crazy marxists" .........when in fact its just not true.

 

[ey_tony]

Like Farage he's a great entertainer that inspires and captivates people. It's definitely a skill, and one that's brought both of them success.

Apparently Ted Bundy was charming and charismatic too. He also excelled in his chosen "field".

Forget Trump for a moment and I know this is entirely off-topic and rather random but more importantly in the grand scheme of things it has a lot of bearing on the future of the UK, do you think that increasing NI taxation on struggling businesses recovering from the effects of the Covid recession and the recession from the ongoing Ukrainian conflict will actually stimulate growth in our economy and get more people back into work?

I'm not against raising the minimum wage by the way but someone has to pay for it so do you think that increasing the costs of employing staff and raising their wages will stimulate growth in the economy as has been promised?

 

[RobinBHM]

Several times (just on this thread) I and others have noted that the damage caused to the UK by Brexit has been muddied by the huge impact of Covid. Your post is the first one I've seen that's mentioned the idea that people discount Covid and blame all the UK's recent economic pains on Brexit.

its a logical fallacy.

I have certainly never claimed or intimated the economic damage to the UK was entirely brexit and not covid.

I dont want to go down some long discussion about brexit as this is a thread about the USA, but I would say:

1) UKs membership of the EU was not the cause of our economic problems so leaving was never going to solve them.

2) conversely rejoining the EU would not solve the UKs economic problems.

3) Despite the fact the EU has fundamental structural failings (notably the Euro common currency and CAP) there was never a brexit destination that was better than membership.



but its all done now and we have to move forwards and try to remove some of those damaging trade barriers.

Trumps policies about tariffs shares overlapping flaws of the hard brexit argument, esp those that were screaming "lets go WTO"

 

[RobinBHM]

Forget Trump for a moment and I know this is entirely off-topic and rather random but more importantly in the grand scheme of things it has a lot of bearing on the future of the UK, do you think that increasing NI taxation on struggling businesses recovering from the effects of the Covid recession and the recession from the ongoing Ukrainian conflict will actually stimulate growth in our economy and get more people back into work?

I'm not against raising the minimum wage by the way but someone has to pay for it so do you think that increasing the costs of employing staff and raising their wages will stimulate growth in the economy as has been promised?

No

Labour should have put employee NI back up and raised top bands of income tax instead

Tony you might not like it but taxes had to be increased, the NHS waiting list has to be tackled

my wife has a friend who has been off work for 9 weeks due to a back problem..........and she cant get back to work until she gets treatment. We have 750,000 people in UK who cant work because of waiting for treatment. We have to throw money at it to get people back in work and paying taxes.

 

[mudman]

I think you've added 2 and 2 and got 5 (and been angry about it).

Not angry. What makes you say that? Bemused that someone can look at a graph and make assumptions and rather simplistic conclusions from limited data and facts.
I think you're getting angry because someone has dared to question a cult leader.

You've said that Canada's problems are the fault of the government. Robin's pointed out that the available data ties the issues with factors such as Covid.

No I haven't, just making an observation.

The UK's ills are down to Brexit and Covid, and again there's plenty of data to support it.

I think we can agree on Covid being a cause but with Brexit, just what evidence is there? You know real evidence, not the list of assumptions from the OBR that was linked to earlier or economist's forecasts. In reality, we only have a few facts, Brexit happened, Covid happened, and that the UK underperformed the G7 in recent years. What all these studies do is to assume that the UK would have performed in line with the other G7 nations and then extrapolated from there. Then noticed a gap and then come to the conclusion that is must have been Brexit. Facts aren't data, the facts we have do not tell us what happens in general. To say with some certainty that leaving the EU caused the UK to underperform you would need to have a large scale study of other countries leaving a political union and the long term performance of their economies before and after. These studies don't exist so all we can do is to come to a conclusion based on opinion and guesswork with a large dash of political and ideological bias.
So in essence, show me the data, and maybe I'll agree with you. But it has to be actual data that can prove that in a parallel universe, a UK that didn't leave the EU performed in line with the G7.

 

[ey_tony]

Unfortunately we see these tribal tropes being pushed, anybody not right wing are referred to as "socialists" "commies" "crazy marxists" .........when in fact its just not true.

Believe it or not I'm not remotely right wing but I just don't subscribe to much of the extreme left wing nonsense that is put out by socialists who can't accept that others see things in a different way to them.
In many ways I admire socialism but not the extremists who subscribe to it.

It's akin to the extremist followers of Islam who believe that if anyone rejects and fails to convert to their form of god worship, they should be killed!
As far as I'm concerned extremism is extremism.

 

[RobinBHM]

I just don't subscribe to much of the extreme left wing nonsense

who can't accept that others see things in a different way to them.

Tony may I politely ask do you not realise that by using the words "extreme left wing nonsense" is an example of not accepting others that see things differently to you?

By the way do you consider the Labour party or the Democrats to be socialists?

Do you think I am a socialist?

 

[Jacob]

......Facts aren't data, .....

But data are facts?