Plywood or MDF drawers....

[Fitch]

Hi guys, I'm after a bit of advice.

I've been asked to make at chest of drawers and a some sling bookcases for a friend who is moving house. They want it in a beach hut style, similar to whats in the picture I've attached but considerably larger (1300w x 850h x 500d) and with 3 rows of drawers, 3 top, 3 mid and 2 bottom.

I think I'm fine with the framework construction but my main hurdle has been deciding on the material for the drawers. I want to keep the costs down as much as possible which is pushing me towards the MDF at £12 a sheet for 12mm vs £45 for birch ply and considering I'd need 2 sheets and they will be painted it seems like a waste of birch. However as they are going to be running on the frames I'm concerned about their durability.

I've got similar small shop bought bathroom units made of mdf and they have held up ok but these will be for the kids room so I'm expecting they will get a bit of abuse, toys being thrown about and not a great deal of care sliding the drawers.

Spruce ply dinks as soon as you look at it and the eastern hardwood ply top veneers are really thin and tend to splinter very easily.

So in short I'm wondering what other people would suggest, stick with mdf, plump for the birch or is there another material I've missed?

Thanks in advance!

 

[deema]

I'd go for MDF with hardwood runners attached to the bottom of the drawers.

 

[woodbrains]

I'd go for MDF with hardwood runners attached to the bottom of the drawers.

Hello,

You could do this, but is the extra time fitting the hardwood strips to MDF going to outweigh using birch ply in the first place. And how are you going to join the drawer fronts to the sides? Ply would make that more solid; weight in the drawers and a poor MDF to MDF joint is likely to have the fronts coming off quickly! If cost is clients driven, maybe they are expecting too much for the money.

Mike.

 

[woodbloke65]

Have a look at the ply that Wickes sell. It's not top quality birch stuff, but it's pretty good for the money and probably one of the better 'shed' plywoods. I've started to use quite a lot of the 12mm stuff and they also do a 5.5 and 9mm. It's also pretty flat - Rob

 

[Fitch]

Hi guys, thanks for the responses.

I did think about hardwood runners, but as mentioned it's probably more work than it's worth.

I forgot to mention the fronts would be 18mm so as far as joining goes it would have either been 12x12 rabbet/glue/screw (or brad) or a routed locking joint.

Prior to my original post I had told my friend the cost of mdf vs birch ply and they actually favoured the birch, which was great as I'm not a fan of mdf but like I said the thought of painting it all makes me a little sick. I suppose im hoping for someone to come up with a happy medium between the 2.

 

[Fitch]

Rob,
I actually use wickes a fair bit as there's one 5mins from me, in fact all my shop units are made from their softwood ply. I've never been too keen on the eastern hardwood stuff though as it seems to peel very easily, and the marine is more expensive than the birch I can get from a local timber yard. I should checktheir 12mm stocks again though, cheers

 

[woodbrains]

Hi guys, thanks for the responses.

I did think about hardwood runners, but as mentioned it's probably more work than it's worth.

I forgot to mention the fronts would be 18mm so as far as joining goes it would have either been 12x12 rabbet/glue/screw (or brad) or a routed locking joint.

Prior to my original post I had told my friend the cost of mdf vs birch ply and they actually favoured the birch, which was great as I'm not a fan of mdf but like I said the thought of painting it all makes me a little sick. I suppose im hoping for someone to come up with a happy medium between the 2.

Hello,

Birch ply is a staple of painted furniture, use it and know you've done the best job.

Rebating MDF drawer fronts and fixing the sides with screws or nails is doomed to failure. MDF is hopeless with fixings into its edge, and drawer fronts yanking on them will expedite the failure.

Mike.

 

[petermillard]

Birch ply is a staple of painted furniture, use it and know you've done the best job.

Don't disagree, I'd go for birch ply here - though I'd say MDF is also a staple of painted furniture.

But...

Rebating MDF drawer fronts and fixing the sides with screws or nails is doomed to failure. MDF is hopeless with fixings into its edge, and drawer fronts yanking on them will expedite the failure.

...is a rather sweeping statement. If it's based on your experience, then with respect, you've been doing it wrong. MDF is a fine product - flat, stable, cheap and widely available in a variety of finishes and qualities - but it does need to be used appropriately. I (and quite a few others on here) make a large chunk of my living making furniture from MDF - if we had the kind of repeated failures you suggest are inevitable, we'd be out of business quickly. We don't, and we aren't.

Cheers, P

 

[woodbloke65]

Rob,
I actually use wickes a fair bit as there's one 5mins from me, in fact all my shop units are made from their softwood ply. I've never been too keen on the eastern hardwood stuff though as it seems to peel very easily, and the marine is more expensive than the birch I can get from a local timber yard. I should checktheir 12mm stocks again though, cheers

As I said, it's not up to the standard of a birch ply, but then you don't pay nearly the same price for it. There are a few small voids in the stuff but it's generally pretty good and a lot better than ply from B&Q, which is appalling. I use it for carcase work where I lip and then veneer directly over the top and thus far, I've had no problems. Wicke's mdf is the same as all the others (cotton wool interior :shock: ) so I tend to source the green stuff where I can - Rob

 

[deema]

With ply, you will need to edge any exposed edges to achieve the same look as the example product. MDF can be edge painted without further work.....I actually would edge any exposed edges on MDF as well....but that's just me! A groove and tongue to hold the edging in place whilst the glue dries is very quick and easy to do on either a router table or spindle moulder. I've found that it saves more time than it takes when painting, and I feel makes a better product with less come back.

 

[Fitch]

The only real exposed edges would be the top of the drawers, the frame is going to be solid pine, and to be honest I've had nightmares in the past with painting mdf edges.

I think I'm erring towards birch for the drawers now. I wasn't sure if it was a bit excessive for the job at first.

Thanks for all the input guys

 

[woodbrains]

Birch ply is a staple of painted furniture, use it and know you've done the best job.

Don't disagree, I'd go for birch ply here - though I'd say MDF is also a staple of painted furniture.

But...

Rebating MDF drawer fronts and fixing the sides with screws or nails is doomed to failure. MDF is hopeless with fixings into its edge, and drawer fronts yanking on them will expedite the failure.

...is a rather sweeping statement. If it's based on your experience, then with respect, you've been doing it wrong. MDF is a fine product - flat, stable, cheap and widely available in a variety of finishes and qualities - but it does need to be used appropriately. I (and quite a few others on here) make a large chunk of my living making furniture from MDF - if we had the kind of repeated failures you suggest are inevitable, we'd be out of business quickly. We don't, and we aren't.

Cheers, P

Hello,

Do you make mdf drawers by nailing the sides into a rebate in the front? If not, why not? Which makes my statement less sweeping than factual. If you do glue and nail drawers into rebates, how exactly do you do it 'properly'?

I'm sure the furniture you make is fine, but my saying that MDF is (universally) regarded as being poor for gluing and fixing into its edge, somehow you have taken as a slight against MDF furniture makers; or I can't be doing thing correctly myself. Well no slight is intended, and I can build strong furniture from MDF, which is precisely why I never make rebated and nailed drawers from it.

Mike.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I have a couple of sizes of mitre lock cutters. I used one for the first time last year, on cheap plywood, and was rather disappointed to see how much of the "tongue" was knocked off the ply whilst running the moulding, and the mitre corners although nice, are really fragile (and yes, facing veneer on cheap ply seems only to be one wood-cell thick!).

You mentioned that these will get "thoroughly tested" by kids. I wonder if this sort of thing from Wealden might be a better choice than the mitre variety, as the tongue looks more robust and there's no 45 deg corners either :
.

You didn't say which type you have, so you might have intended those all along! There's a way of doing similar joints with a tablesaw, too, but mine isn't functional and I can't remember where I saw it done - YouTube probably.

How big are these drawers? If thick enough to be strong, I'd worry a bit about weight for the upper row, on two counts: kids pulling them out on top of themselves, and the whole chest becoming unstable if they manage to pull out all three at once. You can't win, I fear: if they come out individually the chest can't easily tip over, but if they're retained, you could make it unstable with a lot of weight up top.

It does look a rather nice design though. We did one of our bathrooms on a beach-hut theme, and although it's in need of freshening up, the weathered wood slats effect looks pretty good (ours run vertically round the bath frame and the boxed-in toilet cistern). I did faux wood grain by using grey undercoat and white on top (and graining rollers). Took bloomin ages mind, and the few bits that had to be done in situ were really awkward.

E.

 

[Fitch]

Eric, that's very similar to the one I had in mind, I was looking at a cmt version that only cut one tongue, the wealdon one looks better, I'll check them out. I've done similar on a t/saw, and even on a track saw but was going to get a dedicated bit for the router table this time around. I'm not too keen on the mitre ones but may give em a try in the future.

I have pointed out the whole drawer weight/kids issue to my friend. I think they will monitor weight distribution and I'll be putting stops in to prevent drawers falling out. The drawers themselves would be 400w x 500d x 200h , 600w for bottom 2. I'll probably reduce the depth by dado-ing the backs a bit shallower.

I'm hoping to make life a little easier with an hvlp finish, but to be honest I haven't even got the system yet so I'll have to wait and see

Thanks

 

[LBCarpentry]

The only MDF I am happy using these days is MRMDF. It's great to do internal stuff with and also no need to sand / seal the edges. has a nice dense feel and not much more than regular MDF

 

[katellwood]

Have a look at the ply that Wickes sell. It's not top quality birch stuff, but it's pretty good for the money and probably one of the better 'shed' plywoods. I've started to use quite a lot of the 12mm stuff and they also do a 5.5 and 9mm. It's also pretty flat - Rob

except their 12mm only holds up to about 11.2mm (well on my digital vernier anyway) which is a pain in the butt when you want a simple housing with a 12mm router bit (ended up using an 8mm and a making up a jig) or use as a door panel with a 12mm spindle block (luckily I've also got a wobble saw)

Agree its nice stuff too use but the lack of thickness can cause problems

 

[memzey]

Have a look at the ply that Wickes sell. It's not top quality birch stuff, but it's pretty good for the money and probably one of the better 'shed' plywoods. I've started to use quite a lot of the 12mm stuff and they also do a 5.5 and 9mm. It's also pretty flat - Rob

except their 12mm only holds up to about 11.2mm (well on my digital vernier anyway) which is a pain in the butt when you want a simple housing with a 12mm router bit (ended up using an 8mm and a making up a jig) or use as a door panel with a 12mm spindle block (luckily I've also got a wobble saw)

Agree its nice stuff too use but the lack of thickness can cause problems

I know they are a bit controversial but that's where a dado stack comes into its own. You can get a snug fit using different sized chippers and shims no matter the thickness.

 

[petermillard]

Do you make mdf drawers by nailing the sides into a rebate in the front? If not, why not?

I use screws.

...Which makes my statement less sweeping than factual.

Not really, Mike; I drive screws into MDF ’end grain’ every day - literally, every day - so when you say that this is ’doomed to failure’ it is *absolutely* a sweepimg statement that simply doesn't jibe with my daily work. Funnily enough, right now I’m looking at a ’temporary’ set of drawers I made a dozen years ago or so, that were simply nailed through the fronts into the sides - yes, the worst possible method of construction - and yet they’ve held up just fine. Twelve freaking years in the workshop, which I’m sure you'll agree isn't the kindest of environments. So, not actually 'doomed to failure', then, unless you're using an infinite timescale.

I'm sure the furniture you make is fine, but my saying that MDF is (universally) regarded as being poor for gluing and fixing into its edge, somehow you have taken as a slight against MDF furniture makers...

Not at all; I just hear the same tired old nonsense about how you can't glue or fix MDF into its edge, and it simply doesn't reflect my experience.

Have a good weekend. P

 

[meccarroll]

Think I'd be tempted to use under draw runners.

This project must be taking a couple of days to make then maybe another day or so to paint so why is there a problem accounting for £66 in the final price?

When you account for what some people charge per day this item would cost around £1000 by some, so £66 for the difference in ply verses mdf seems pretty small.

Mark