Plane Blade Squareness

[mark w]

I meant there is no need for a power grinder for hand tools in a woodwork shop.
Very often do invisible damage with over heating and a major cause of problems for novices.
I admit it took me some years to get back to basics but worth the effort.

No heat damage with a wet stone grinder.

 

[Pedronicus]

have you checked that square for square?

The imperial scale starts at 1", which is 25.4 mm

Look at the top scale, it's reading 2.50

something ain't proper there, at least to me.

Could it be that the metric scale starts at the outer face/corner of the stock/blade and the imperial scale starts at the inner face/corner of the stock/blade?

 

[andrew_2]

How square does a plane blade have to be?

I've spent hours on the Tormek and Worksharp with this blade and cant get it square

Just a thought - have you checked your grinding wheel for square? It's quite easy to set up the jig off square without realising, and for the business edge of the wheel to be off square to the side of the wheel, if I said that correctly!

 

[Jacob]

Is also inaccurate and wastes steel.

Not at all. If retouching a blade in the normal freehand way (a little and often) you go to the point where you bring up a burr and stop there, before turning it over onto the flat side. The burr shows you have honed just enough and need go no further. Absolute minimum metal removal and stuff lasts a lot longer.

 

[Jesmona]

Not at all. If retouching a blade in the normal freehand way (a little and often) you go to the point where you bring up a burr and stop there, before turning it over onto the flat side. The burr shows you have honed just enough and need go no further. Absolute minimum metal removal and stuff lasts a lot longer.

I strongly suspect, everyone has got the message from you now.
I was taught things at C&G level in a different trade, 30 years ago. Some of those things have now been surpassed by changes in technology and methodology, and for the better.
There is no one right way to achieve a result, time moves on, people change as do lifestyles and goals.
Achieve sharpness and or flatness (or not) in a way that gives you the results you want at the speed you want.
The sharpening debate is beyond boring now. OP asked a question and it has been answered.

 

[pgrbff]

i recently bought a bevel up lie nielsen blade second hand, it's nearly 5mm thick and ground at the wrong angle. I don't have a grinder but I suspect it will take several hours to regrind it on my coarsest diamond stone. a grinder would be a blessing

 

[jcassidy]

Just use the lateral adjuster. That's what it's for.

 

[Jacob]

I strongly suspect, everyone has got the message from you now.

No you'd be surprised at how often I have to keep trotting it out!
I don't think people realise how recent modern sharpening techniques are. I doubt anybody used the term "micro-bevel" before about 1980 perhaps. Along with "ruler trick" etc.
The "ruler trick" has always been used however, but without a ruler - as it is easier.

I was taught things at C&G level in a different trade, 30 years ago.

I was taught at C&G level in carpentry and joinery 42 years ago!
Honing jigs have always been around but were only just beginning to be fashionable back then.

 

[segovia]

As @AESamuel suggests have you checked the squareness (or lack of) with the stock of the square on the righthand side of the blade?

yes, Ihave checked

 

[segovia]

have you checked that square for square?

The imperial scale starts at 1", which is 25.4 mm

Look at the top scale, it's reading 2.50

something ain't proper there, at least to me.

Square is square I checked it

 

[segovia]

What's your plane blade made out of then?

Clifton Planes, The Cutting Iron is made from cryogenically treated 01 steel, hardened and tempered to 60-62 Rockwell C the precision ground and are 0.120″ thick (3mm)

 

[thetyreman]

try using microlapping film on a glass plate, 100 micron paper will get through a lot of steel quite fast, and you don't have the issues of de tempering the metal like with a grinding wheel, I only use a grinder when it's very severely out of square.

 

[Bingy man]

The one thing I’ll never get my head around with anything to do with sharpening, honing or grinding is if a particular method works for you be it freehand, use of a guide , or the super expensive sharpening machines with all their even more expensive accessories then why would that be such a pretentious issue for others . I’ve a COG in gas fitting and installation but it didn’t extend to sharpening. I struggled for years trying to keep a sharp and square edge on my chisels and plane irons without success and consistency. Used a cheap guide and instant improvement. A few years later a better guide with multiple options and settings. So what if I don’t use them all , the only info I need is what angle to set for a particular blade and that’s easy enough to find . So imho if a question is posted on sharpening freehand then those that use that method should answer and likewise any asking about a particular jig or honing guide can advise accordingly. Nobody needs to be chastised for using a particular method so no need to get involved if it’s not your cup of tea..

 

[Jacob]

The one thing I’ll never get my head around with anything to do with sharpening, honing or grinding is if a particular method works for you be it freehand, use of a guide , or the super expensive sharpening machines with all their even more expensive accessories then why would that be such a pretentious issue for others . I’ve a COG in gas fitting and installation but it didn’t extend to sharpening. I struggled for years trying to keep a sharp and square edge on my chisels and plane irons without success and consistency. Used a cheap guide and instant improvement. A few years later a better guide with multiple options and settings. So what if I don’t use them all , the only info I need is what angle to set for a particular blade and that’s easy enough to find . So imho if a question is posted on sharpening freehand then those that use that method should answer and likewise any asking about a particular jig or honing guide can advise accordingly. Nobody needs to be chastised for using a particular method so no need to get involved if it’s not your cup of tea..

I just reckon it could be useful to remind people that sharpening can still be done the simple way, particularly as it has almost been written out of the record as though it never used to happen.
No chastising involved! You are under no obligation! Don't worry about a thing!

 

[Headscratching]

A Tormek is not infallible. Despite being seated in the clamp, it may not be square. Put your blade in and lightly touch the stone. You may be able to see that it isn't square. Unfortunately, there's a bit of an art to getting it square in a Tormek! Never just go for it blindly.

 

[Jacob]

If it is usable as it is there's no need to square it immediately. Instead just bias your sharpening towards the high side and correct it little by little with subsequent sharpenings. Saves time, effort, and metal.

 

[Jacob]

i recently bought a bevel up lie nielsen blade second hand, it's nearly 5mm thick and ground at the wrong angle. I don't have a grinder but I suspect it will take several hours to regrind it on my coarsest diamond stone. a grinder would be a blessing

What is wrong with the angle?
If you are trying to get it back to 30º with just a diamond plate it helps to mount the blade in a slot in a length of 2x1". Then you can use full force, fast, with both hands, to get it down. Doesn't have to be a particularly good fit in the 2x1", just a couple of saw kerfs- in use the pressure keeps it in place.
You only need to go a few degrees under (say 27º) over to make it possible to hone an edge at 30.
Honing jig no use - have to do it by eye.
PS forgot to add - fast freehand means slightly rounded bevel, which greatly upsets modern sharpeners. A dead flat bevel not possible freehand, so you hit the stone at 30º but dip as you go forward, producing a slightly rounded bevel but still with a 30º edge, which is the only bit which counts.

 

[Bingy man]

I just reckon it could be useful to remind people that sharpening can still be done the simple way, particularly as it has almost been written out of the record as though it never used to happen.
No chastising involved! You are under no obligation! Don't worry about a thing!

It’s all good @Jacob it my post was a general comment and not aimed at any specific member . I do actually get where your coming from if I use modern day plumbing as an analogy- I’m a traditional copper pipe and soldered fittings when ever possible and although I use them from time to time I don’t particularly like them or trust them . The lady who phoned me last week in tears had just come home from a 12 hr shift to find water pouring through what was left of the ceiling. And a 22mm push fit cap was the culprit and worse still it had been leaking for several years . The original bathroom fitter came out and accepted responsibility. I asked him why did he not use a soldered fitting and his answer was they are quicker. My response was a week or so to dry out a day to board and skim then return to paint the ceiling and paint the lounge didn’t seem that quick- he couldn’t answer . So I do get traditional methods but we all end up using what works best for us given the time we have . A few minutes to prepare a copper pipe for soldering versus a few seconds to push a cap onto the same pipe

 

[Trafalgar]

Proper day-to-day grinding does not shorten the iron. You don't grind until a burr is produced. All it does is put the hollow in so that the barest minimum of metal has to be removed when honing. It's saves steel, it doesn't waste steel. The hollow is ground in to just behind the cutting edge, then the stones take it the rest of the way to sharp.

"Trad" methods are one thing, fundamental misunderstanding of hollow grinding quite another.

If you're a bench woodworker, not a site carpenter/joiner, there's no reason not to grind. And if you've ever seen site carpenters/joiners set up on site it's laughable that a 6" bench grinder would be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back -- there is power equipment strewn about everywhere.

 

[Jacob]

Proper day-to-day grinding does not shorten the iron. You don't grind until a burr is produced.

Er - wrong way around surely? When you get a burr that's when you stop and flatten the flat face.

All it does is put the hollow in so that the barest minimum of metal has to be removed when honing. It's saves steel, it doesn't waste steel. The hollow is ground in to just behind the cutting edge, then the stones take it the rest of the way to sharp.

"Trad" methods are one thing, fundamental misunderstanding of hollow grinding quite another.

I agree. Hollow grinding has no purpose at all except it is the easiest way to finish off on a small grind wheel. Try to do a flat bevel and it looks like it's been nibbled by rats!

If you're a bench woodworker, not a site carpenter/joiner, there's no reason not to grind.

If you do it the normal trad way you never need to grind much at all, except for major remedial work. Powered grindstones best avoided as far as possible.
I found that when I rediscovered trad sharpening, (about 15 years ago perhaps) it was surprising how much of modern sharpening ideas I could just ignore.