Plane blade edge from a Tormek?

[D_W]

Lol, but in his defence, he did post some nice pictures of his kitchen that he made, and his chisel handles are beautiful. Ian

My apologies to you on the exchange, as I know you do this for a living, and it's more the point that I'm pushing and not you. I am not a fine worker, but like a lot of amateurs, try to do well. The only thing that I've ever managed to do that's bucked book knowledge (which seems to me to be errant) is better hardness and toughness of commercial steel for a couple of alloys just using cheap heat treatment equipment. This isn't going to be that much interest on a woodworking forum, and I can't stomach the knife making and metal work forum, so it's just a fluke that I backed into experimenting with heat treatment processes to try to match commercial results (this isn't an exotic thing, it's a thrift thing - I just don't think hobbyists should have to spend a lot of money to do much, and the idea that a hobbyist should just give up and use a commercial heat treat service at great cost rubs me the wrong way).

Somewhere, the fact that I will experiment with steel, sharpening time, results, etc (which is more of a toolmaker's focus) gives way to the idea that the process is exotic. I can pretty much list out the things that I'd use:
* oilstones in an oil bath
* a $19 diamond hone from ebay
* washita outside the oil bath
* autosol (or a buffing bar from clearance in a hardware store - any of the white buffing bars are very very fine).
* I use a cheap chinese buffer from harbor freight here fairly often

I do use a dry grinder, but one can do that by hand with oilstones, and I don't think an expensive grinder makes any difference.

The list above could be trimmed for relatively minimal to moderate hand tool use to the diamond stone, a washita (which could really be any mid natural oilstone and autosol).

There is a lot of gain to be had chasing fine (cheaply) and fast. If a very fine edge were expensive or slow (and it can be if the gurus who sell stuff are relied upon), then it's a no go.

I think you said you might be moving to the states - maybe PA. If you're near Pittsburgh, by all means, stop in. I won't be able to teach any good woodworkers about woodworking, but you might find the sharpening stuff interesting. It's not a threat or a contest, it's just something that I've run actual A/B comparisons and moved one way or another. I had no teacher - the only person who has ever really impressed anything upon me is George Wilson. He can't lend me his talent, but it's more an obligation to discern (and he is an expert maker of the highest degree, but starting from a pure ability to design and do things freehand that most people cannot -I'd never be able to - like visualize a classical design and draw curves that look like they came from a template). Because I had no teacher, I had no reason not to experiment. How dumb is it that someone would make chisels? Let's be honest, it's stupid. You can find them on the rack in any retail corridor. But I'm not a pro, so I can spend 10% or so of my time experimenting if I'd like to try to chase the buzz of doing everything by hand (as much as possible) with the other 90%.

And having spent enormous amounts of money in the past trialing things gives me some A/B comparisons - I can tell when things are starkly different, and when they're not. To go a step finer (following the oilstone with something like autosol) at first is minimally "well, that's sharper". When you do an A/B comparison, you find out things (these comparisons take a lot of work) like difference in edge longevity. The A/B comparison lets you feel things and see effort that you're expending that you can't notice with a time gap between trying things. (longevity in a test, for example, with 1 micron diamond vs. 5 - and 5 sounds like tiny diamonds, but they're brash and that's not a very good edge - is a 50% difference 3 feet planed per 2 from 1 micron to 5. The sharpening process with either is the same and the diamonds can be replaced with autosol, but neither really costs anything - years' of lapidary diamonds to finish hone would be $10).

I don't have much tolerance for Jacob because he speaks in hypotheticals, I've never seen a single thing that he's made that matches anything that you've shown, and his responses are nonsensical - one he often responds to my comments is that "if I ever made anything", I'd know more like he does. It's nonsense.

Adam seems to have taken offense early on when I had no clue who he was and mentioned a scrub plane having nothing to do with hand tool working if productivity is an issue unless someone is working wet wood. When he asserted that he was using a scrub plane and sung its praises, I asked him what kind of work he did. He told me he has a B.A. and that asking questions was grilling. I gave him grief for using "I.Have.A B.A.!" as a response, and tracked down some of his posts to find out that.....he was working a lot of green wood. As I expected. I don't know if his fighting answering was because he was upset that his eminence wasn't just believed or if he was mad that I guessed what he was working on from experience having done the same thing (Finding no use for a wood chunking scrub plane instead of a jack, except in cases of chunking green wood).

I stopped responding to this thread yesterday because it became a bicker between me and you and you're a pro. If you posted relatively plain work because that's what your market wants, and you do it well, then things are getting out of bounds - even for me - I'm not here for that (to belittle people -there's nothing special about what I've made and I can readily admit it - it's the actual proven points that I like, and I get not everyone else is into routine experimenting). It's fingernails on a chalk board to me for some of the things I've compared just because I've quantified them and was surprised in some cases at things I couldn't feel.

And there are further nutter things like Richard mentioning to me at one point that silica in mahogany can spoil a planed surface (Richard has long told me what customers actually care about - not repeatedly the same thing - but once in a while when we've had the occasion to discuss things). I've figured out how to sharpen plane irons (no cost, quick, just simple alterations without buying anything) so that wood with silica can be planed without the silica nicking a plane iron. That's a little more nutty because the average pro would already be finishing the surface by sanding.

All of these bits are detail heavy. I guess I get sort of a reputation when one piece of sharpening gear after another comes up and I can say "I had that, and....".

I also have some really expensive sharpening stones still - it's a side hobby. It has nothing to do with making and I don't talk about those at great length because the reality is they don't do anything different (these are natural stones - the expensive synthetic stones are nonsense - at least there is some rarity to the natural types). $20 of sharpening equipment can match $2000 in speed and results, and generally is nicer to use (what happens if you drop an india stone that you got at a flea market? what happens if you drop a shapton 30k that a guru recommends everyone should have?)

At any rate, if you're the fellow who is moving to PA, hit me up when you get here. I'll send you some chisels.

 

[JohnPW]

What's "grade stone" or "grading the wheel" on a Tormek?

The Tormeks at work have one abrasive wheel and one leather wheel. I thought Tormeks are for grinding, yes slow but no dust and no overheating, then you hone on a bench stone(s), then an optional strop.

I never use the leather wheel as I feel it can round over the edge.

 

[D_W]

It's a coarse and fine silicon carbide stone (as well as a diamond truing tool). When you run the silicon carbide stone over the alumina wheel, the abrasive is crushed/cut by the grading stone into a finer surface.

Think of it like rasping wood or sanding it with finer sandpaper to change the texture of the surface.

Most people discard the grading stone fairly quickly with tormeks and go just to using them as a grinder. The diamond truing tool works better for freshening the wheel, but its method of use removes material from the wheel, though, and the wheels aren't cheap! I tried several different wheels in an attempt to make the tormek faster as a honing tool, but what you've come to is where most people end up - the accessories get forgotten and the tool becomes a grinder with occassional use of the leather.

I can't remember but another pro on here at one time made a good point - in his shop, the insurer would not allow sparks, so the tormek was the machine of need for grinding. They are a pretty effective grinder if the grind wheel is kept as fresh as possible.

 

[hlvd]

What's "grade stone" or "grading the wheel" on a Tormek?

The Tormeks at work have one abrasive wheel and one leather wheel. I thought Tormeks are for grinding, yes slow but no dust and no overheating, then you hone on a bench stone(s), then an optional strop.

I never use the leather wheel as I feel it can round over the edge.

The Tormek will give you a razor sharp edge if you grade the wheel with the fine side. Just touch up the 30 degree sharpening edge then strop on the leather.

I've adapted mine both at home and at work to have two guide bars, one for the grinding wheel and one for the leather wheel. This way there's no rounding over and you get quick repeatable edges.

 

[D_W]

I'm aware that David's put a lot of time and effort into research on sharpening and tool steel, and he's discussed his findings in detail, not so much here I think, but elsewhere where he's disseminated his findings.

I don't know what causes it -the curiosity. I get a lot of grief for the microscope pictures, but I already have the microscope. And it sorts things out. Like not wasting money on expensive sharpening stones, because they're not faster, and they're not finer than other means. It's not a contest to make it out like other people should buy microscopes, too.

A lot of the follow up proof is just because that's the first response. "what you're saying isn't true" or "your test is flawed". That's annoying, and the lure to prove things is sort of a false lure because the vast majority of folks aren't actually looking for you to prove something, they're hoping you can't and then if you can, they disappear. So it's mostly a waste.

And then there's the woodworking personality thing - "I have an issue I'd like to improve or fix, but I'm not taking suggestions from you. Only from Paul Sellers because he's a real maker and you're just a guy on the internet".

A lot of the bits have limited use. I want to plane wood with silica in it and still plane a finished surface. What's the application of that? I get it, nobody really cares that much - just sand it instead. That also enters into it. With edge fineness, the issue really is as simple as replacing removing the wire edge with honing the last bit of the tip, and if you can do it in a way that the geometry is also better, then it's a time neutral no cost or near no cost thing that works better.

This barely fits in the tormek thread, but it sort of does. If you just use the tormek and don't look elsewhere for any of the steps, everything that the tormek doesn't do is off the table. But for someone starting out, if the tormek works, then that's fine - it gets you started and you can move on from there. The time and results things only become an issue if you start to put off sharpening because the tormek takes 3 or 4 minutes and your mind is on working the wood. Then something needs to be addressed.

 

[Adam W.]

My apologies to you on the exchange, as I know you do this for a living, and it's more the point that I'm pushing and not you. I am not a fine worker, but like a lot of amateurs, try to do well. The only thing that I've ever managed to do that's bucked book knowledge (which seems to me to be errant) is better hardness and toughness of commercial steel for a couple of alloys just using cheap heat treatment equipment. This isn't going to be that much interest on a woodworking forum, and I can't stomach the knife making and metal work forum, so it's just a fluke that I backed into experimenting with heat treatment processes to try to match commercial results (this isn't an exotic thing, it's a thrift thing - I just don't think hobbyists should have to spend a lot of money to do much, and the idea that a hobbyist should just give up and use a commercial heat treat service at great cost rubs me the wrong way).

Somewhere, the fact that I will experiment with steel, sharpening time, results, etc (which is more of a toolmaker's focus) gives way to the idea that the process is exotic. I can pretty much list out the things that I'd use:
* oilstones in an oil bath
* a $19 diamond hone from ebay
* washita outside the oil bath
* autosol (or a buffing bar from clearance in a hardware store - any of the white buffing bars are very very fine).
* I use a cheap chinese buffer from harbor freight here fairly often

I do use a dry grinder, but one can do that by hand with oilstones, and I don't think an expensive grinder makes any difference.

The list above could be trimmed for relatively minimal to moderate hand tool use to the diamond stone, a washita (which could really be any mid natural oilstone and autosol).

There is a lot of gain to be had chasing fine (cheaply) and fast. If a very fine edge were expensive or slow (and it can be if the gurus who sell stuff are relied upon), then it's a no go.

I think you said you might be moving to the states - maybe PA. If you're near Pittsburgh, by all means, stop in. I won't be able to teach any good woodworkers about woodworking, but you might find the sharpening stuff interesting. It's not a threat or a contest, it's just something that I've run actual A/B comparisons and moved one way or another. I had no teacher - the only person who has ever really impressed anything upon me is George Wilson. He can't lend me his talent, but it's more an obligation to discern (and he is an expert maker of the highest degree, but starting from a pure ability to design and do things freehand that most people cannot -I'd never be able to - like visualize a classical design and draw curves that look like they came from a template). Because I had no teacher, I had no reason not to experiment. How dumb is it that someone would make chisels? Let's be honest, it's stupid. You can find them on the rack in any retail corridor. But I'm not a pro, so I can spend 10% or so of my time experimenting if I'd like to try to chase the buzz of doing everything by hand (as much as possible) with the other 90%.

And having spent enormous amounts of money in the past trialing things gives me some A/B comparisons - I can tell when things are starkly different, and when they're not. To go a step finer (following the oilstone with something like autosol) at first is minimally "well, that's sharper". When you do an A/B comparison, you find out things (these comparisons take a lot of work) like difference in edge longevity. The A/B comparison lets you feel things and see effort that you're expending that you can't notice with a time gap between trying things. (longevity in a test, for example, with 1 micron diamond vs. 5 - and 5 sounds like tiny diamonds, but they're brash and that's not a very good edge - is a 50% difference 3 feet planed per 2 from 1 micron to 5. The sharpening process with either is the same and the diamonds can be replaced with autosol, but neither really costs anything - years' of lapidary diamonds to finish hone would be $10).

I don't have much tolerance for Jacob because he speaks in hypotheticals, I've never seen a single thing that he's made that matches anything that you've shown, and his responses are nonsensical - one he often responds to my comments is that "if I ever made anything", I'd know more like he does. It's nonsense.

Adam seems to have taken offense early on when I had no clue who he was and mentioned a scrub plane having nothing to do with hand tool working if productivity is an issue unless someone is working wet wood. When he asserted that he was using a scrub plane and sung its praises, I asked him what kind of work he did. He told me he has a B.A. and that asking questions was grilling. I gave him grief for using "I.Have.A B.A.!" as a response, and tracked down some of his posts to find out that.....he was working a lot of green wood. As I expected. I don't know if his fighting answering was because he was upset that his eminence wasn't just believed or if he was mad that I guessed what he was working on from experience having done the same thing (Finding no use for a wood chunking scrub plane instead of a jack, except in cases of chunking green wood).

I stopped responding to this thread yesterday because it became a bicker between me and you and you're a pro. If you posted relatively plain work because that's what your market wants, and you do it well, then things are getting out of bounds - even for me - I'm not here for that (to belittle people -there's nothing special about what I've made and I can readily admit it - it's the actual proven points that I like, and I get not everyone else is into routine experimenting). It's fingernails on a chalk board to me for some of the things I've compared just because I've quantified them and was surprised in some cases at things I couldn't feel.

And there are further nutter things like Richard mentioning to me at one point that silica in mahogany can spoil a planed surface (Richard has long told me what customers actually care about - not repeatedly the same thing - but once in a while when we've had the occasion to discuss things). I've figured out how to sharpen plane irons (no cost, quick, just simple alterations without buying anything) so that wood with silica can be planed without the silica nicking a plane iron. That's a little more nutty because the average pro would already be finishing the surface by sanding.

All of these bits are detail heavy. I guess I get sort of a reputation when one piece of sharpening gear after another comes up and I can say "I had that, and....".

I also have some really expensive sharpening stones still - it's a side hobby. It has nothing to do with making and I don't talk about those at great length because the reality is they don't do anything different (these are natural stones - the expensive synthetic stones are nonsense - at least there is some rarity to the natural types). $20 of sharpening equipment can match $2000 in speed and results, and generally is nicer to use (what happens if you drop an india stone that you got at a flea market? what happens if you drop a shapton 30k that a guru recommends everyone should have?)

At any rate, if you're the fellow who is moving to PA, hit me up when you get here. I'll send you some chisels.

Mind you don't knock your halo on the way out.

 

[Cabinetman]

At any rate, if you're the fellow who is moving to PA, hit me up when you get here. I'll send you some chisels.

Now that’s very decent of you. I’m sure it would be interesting to see your methods. Ian

 

[D_W]

Mind you don't knock your halo on the way out.

That's pretty much factual background. You may recall you took offense that someone would actually ask you a question about methods, became indignant when I guessed that your comments only made sense due to working wet wood and were bad advice for someone working dry wood (and had no historical merit once the double iron existed), and you went on at length about how no sawn wood would ever have the care taken in your riving of wood, and I showed you sawn beech from a specialty sawyer local to me that is straighter than any of the wood you rived. I wouldn't make a plane out of any of the wood you showed - not that there's anything wrong with riving, but the actual wood was less straight than the sawn result. You left in a huff and floated up into a cloud of self-asserted eminence.

I have no issue with cabinetman, and didn't like the way things went as they stemmed out of nothing more than a disagreement of whether or not sharpening a little further is productive. I've not encountered the same puffery from him that I got from you and your B.A. or the nonsense responses that Jacob gives before he finally admits he's done most of his work with power tools the last three decades intertwined with commenting that "you should actually make things and you will see" when I post 20 things made for each 1 of his.

Any halo placed above my head would evaporate quickly - I just don't feel great after the fact for giving someone too much grief when they really don't deserve it stuck among a couple of folks who probably do. I'm not so much for manners, but fairness is important.

 

[TheTiddles]

Mind you don't knock your halo on the way out.

If you’ve read all that, I feel like you should have a tinfoil blanket and some energy drink like you’ve just finished a marathon, maybe a splint for your thumb

 

[Jacob]

If you’ve read all that, I feel like you should have a tinfoil blanket and some energy drink like you’ve just finished a marathon, maybe a split for your thumb

I had him on ignore but I had to have a little peep! Surpassed himself here.
He was much better some time ago when I told him to try to stick to 300 words max per post.
I see I've got right up his nose! I can live with that, and he names me in every post!
It's like being stalked.
Pressed the ignore button again.

 

[Sporky McGuffin]

I bought an Axminster Rider no62 shoulder plane a month or two ago - I wanted something for cleaning up, erm, shoulders.

I did all the sharpening on my Tormek, on account of that's what I've got. It was dead easy, and the plane now works perfectly well. That'll do me.

 

[Adam W.]

If you’ve read all that, I feel like you should have a tinfoil blanket and some energy drink like you’ve just finished a marathon, maybe a splint for your thumb

I skim read.....very quickly. Most of it doesn't register.

 

[Adam W.]

That's pretty much factual background. You may recall you took offense that someone would actually ask you a question about methods, became indignant when I guessed that your comments only made sense due to working wet wood and were bad advice for someone working dry wood (and had no historical merit once the double iron existed), and you went on at length about how no sawn wood would ever have the care taken in your riving of wood, and I showed you sawn beech from a specialty sawyer local to me that is straighter than any of the wood you rived. I wouldn't make a plane out of any of the wood you showed - not that there's anything wrong with riving, but the actual wood was less straight than the sawn result. You left in a huff and floated up into a cloud of self-asserted eminence.

I have no issue with cabinetman, and didn't like the way things went as they stemmed out of nothing more than a disagreement of whether or not sharpening a little further is productive. I've not encountered the same puffery from him that I got from you and your B.A. or the nonsense responses that Jacob gives before he finally admits he's done most of his work with power tools the last three decades intertwined with commenting that "you should actually make things and you will see" when I post 20 things made for each 1 of his.

Any halo placed above my head would evaporate quickly - I just don't feel great after the fact for giving someone too much grief when they really don't deserve it stuck among a couple of folks who probably do. I'm not so much for manners, but fairness is important.

My bold. That's not quite true is it ?

I take offence at your pompous attitude and the way that you denigrate or belittle anyone who dares to have different thoughts than you on anything.

Hope that helps.

I also don't care about your love affair with Jacob.

 

[Cabinetman]

Yes David’s writing is always a little bit of a marathon but in this case I’m glad he did and I’m glad I took the time to read it properly. It seems that he is an extremely curious man with the time to experiment and then obviously he wants to tell us all about it and I won’t criticise him for that. He obviously knows his steel, more than most of us ever will. I’m sure he could show me how to get my tools sharper, whether I need them sharper? Not really up to now but who knows what difficult timber l might want to plane in the future. I was a little dismissive- sorry David.

 

[transatlantic]

Sometimes, this group can be just as bad as Facebook.

We're here to learn from each other. Not argue like a bunch of little children.

 

[Ttrees]

So, here's what the tormek would need to do to be efficient at the process - it'd need to have two wheels or a composite wide wheel to do the grind and hone steps without grading the wheel, and then to follow that for honing, the leather wheel would need to turn about 5-10 times as fast. But it doesn't. A buffer turns faster, as would any powered strop that you could make, and a stone will establish an initial bevel off of the grinding wheel in a matter of seconds (and then you don't have to grade).

But the machine is a very accurate grinder for routine bevel maintenance, and it *can* do the other things, just slower and not quite as well as other cheap options.

And thus came about Weavers wheel TM

 

[TRITON]

It worked for everybody for thousands of years until modern sharpening was invented, 30 or so years ago

Have to say Jacob, thats a a load of dingo's kidneys. At least on your timeline.
Viceroy sharpening centers have been on the go for probably 3 times that, and no doubt other powered grinders were in industrial operation long before that, and before powered we had belt driven, and before that foot driven.
Nobody, especially an employer wants their staff wasting time grinding their blades by hand. Walk to the machine, switch it on, hone to readiness, and back to the job at hand.

 

[Daniel2]

Sometimes, this group can be just as bad as Facebook.

We're here to learn from each other. Not argue like a bunch of little children.

What were you expecting when you, essentially, started a new
sharpening thread ?

 

[Cabinetman]

What were you expecting when you, essentially, started a new
sharpening thread ?

Classic!

 

[transatlantic]

What were you expecting when you, essentially, started a new
sharpening thread ?

You make it sound like its something that is against the rules.

Are sharpening questions disallowed because some members get a little excited?