Plane bevels

[Digit]

When planing end grain the conventional wisdom is to use a low angle plane.
Now most low angle planes are used bevel up, whereas more conventional planes are bevel down!
A quick calculation suggests that from the timber's viewpoint there is little difference.
Any ideas anyone?

Roy

 

[Philly]

Roy
You are absolutely right!
The theory goes that a low angle makes for an easier cut on end grain - but you will find that the important feature is a sharp blade! My HNT Gordon shoulder planes have the irons set at 60 degrees, bevel down, and they cut end grain with ease.
I believe that the bevel up design allows greater support for the iron at the cutting edge - that is the main benefit.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Digit]

I went to the trouble of making a low angle plane for a shooting board Philly. Wooden planes certainly support the iron better than metal ones IMO when a wedge is used, but having sharpened the iron on it plus on a No 4 frankly I can see no difference.
As you say, the sharpness and support seems most important.
When I can find the time I'm going to turn the woody to bevel down, which of course will need a very acute bevel angle and see what happens.
Anybody else tried this?

Roy.

 

[Anonymous]

When planing end grain the conventional wisdom is to use a low angle plane.
Now most low angle planes are used bevel up, whereas more conventional planes are bevel down!
A quick calculation suggests that from the timber's viewpoint there is little difference.
Any ideas anyone?

Roy

Roy, I used to think that a shallower angle would work best or end grainl. but upon reflection and experience decided that thsis not the case.

My #9 Iron mitre Plane for use on the shooting board (bevel up) is ground and honed with a 38 degree bevel rather than the standard 25 degrees and works much better for the woods I work.


If you're interested I regularly use the following on the shooting board - Beech, Oak, Purple heart, American Walnut, Ash, Sycamore, various 'mahoganys', American Cherry, English Cherry, Bubinga, Paduak, Zebrano and a few others

 

[Digit]

I use mainly hardwoods as well Tony and what you say supports what I've found to be the case.
Maybe we're starting a trend? :lol:

Roy.

 

[Philly]

And the #9 has the bed at 12 1/2 degrees, right? So Tony's plane has an effective pitch (what the wood see's) of 50 degrees - higher than a "standard" bench plane.
Roy
My Miter Planehas the blade bevel down with a bed of 38 degrees for a true "low angle" plane. You do get issues with the bevel rubbing on the work if you don't have enough relief so I recommend going no lower than 35 degrees with this type of plane and using a 25 degree bevel on the iron.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[Digit]

Thanks Philly, helps to avoid any further mistakes. I wonder how the low angle bevel up idea came about? It's been around for a long time.
Another thing I take issue with Philly is the idea that a heavy plane is in some way superior to a lighter one, I just find it harder work.
I've replaced my number six with a home made wooden one that is half the weight and in no way inferior.
Mind you I get fed up with Iron tapping! :x

Roy.

 

[David C]

Philly,

I think you will find that the no. 9 has a bed of 20 degrees.

There is a trick for the 9 which will lower effective pitch.
Small 10 degree back bevel, 20 degree bevel honing. This lowers the EP to 40 degrees. Whether it is worth the extra stage is debateable?

Totally agree that sharpness is the most important things when planing end grain.

best wishes,
David

 

[Lord Nibbo]

Is it just me or had it been said before but I always thought that the main reason and advantage with any LA plane is better adjustment. Because of the low angle the blade has to travel further to protrude out below the mouth which means it much easier to set it for very fine cutting. Sorry for the lack of eloquence in trying to explain but I'm still half asleep.

 

[Philly]

Thanks David - that makes Tony's plane 58 degrees, definitely not "low".

Roy -weight of planes is very much a personal thing. And if you have to do a lot of work with a heavy plane you certainly know it! :lol:

LN - you're right, the lower bed angle means the blade has to travel further to project the same amount than a "standard pitch" bench plane. It really depends on the thread pitch of the adjusting mechanism, though - I really don't understand why such a coarse thread is used on the Veritas BU planes :roll:

Cheers
Philly

 

[Digit]

While the subject of sharpness is being mentioned I'll raise another of my concerns.
Honing guides!
I can't get on with the damn things at all! As they all seem to run on the stone you are are running the guide on a surface that has probably been used to hone an edge already, and therefore probably not as level as we might like.
Also they shorten the stroke because of the space they take up on the stone and it is difficult to hone a wide Iron on a narrow stone.
Solution? I hope! This week I purchased a superfine diamond honing plate, as time permits I intend fixing it down on a wide base and making a 'saddle' guide that will straddle the plate and run on the base.
This way, if the saddle has the appropriate honing angle built into it, the angle is guaranteed, the width of the Iron is irrelevant and the full length of the plate will be used.
Anyone tried anything similar?

Roy.

 

[Chris Knight]

Roy,

There are commercial versions of such a thing like this one

No idea if they are any good though. Clearly you'll need a smooth and level surface for them to run on.

 

[Digit]

I've got Ax's cat Chris but I must have missed that one.
I have to say that I'm not impressed though as it appears, once again, that the honing angle is determined by how far the Iron protrudes through the clamp.
I want something that I can drop the Iron on to and that automatically gives me the correct honing angle and a square edge. It would appear that Ax's contribution would take time to set up each time you need to do some honing.
5 out of 10, must try harder! :lol:

Roy.

 

[Chris Knight]

Roy,
If you make yourself a board with stops for different blades/angles, against which you register the edge of the blade whilst registering the guide against the board, as you tighten the blade clamp - you will have a pretty automatic system.

 

[Digit]

That's the sort of idea I have in mind Chris. Now all I have to do is find the time-----.

Roy.

 

[woodbloke]

That's the sort of idea I have in mind Chris. Now all I have to do is find the time-----.

Roy.

Roy - this thingies look like miniature bench hooks and take all of about 10 minutes to make. Using an Eclipse honing guide the projection from the leading edge of the hook to the rear where the blade edge rests is 44mm for a 30deg honing angle. I have a whole raft of these things for BU and BD plane blades and once they've been accurately made, there is no measurement involved at all in the sharpening process - Rob

 

[Digit]

If I've followed you correctly Rob that still leaves the guide running on the stone, which is one of the things I wish to avoid.

Roy

 

[woodbloke]

Roy - true enough, but I've never found that to be a problem. I use the standard size DMT diamond stones and just turn them round now and again to equalize the wear (if any) caused by the roller, the shorted honing distance doesn't affect it's ability to put an edge onto a blade and after the DMT's a micro bevel is honed at about 3deg higher on a longer 10000g Spyderco ceramic stone - Rob

 

[Digit]

I agree that the diamond plate can be turned Rob, I simply don't like the idea of running things along a stone because after years of using various stones I have doubts as to how flat they are now. That was one of the reasons a bought the diamond plate.

Roy.

 

[David C]

Roy,

I have always thought that it is much more likely that the action of hardened tool steel on a stone is more likely to wear a hollow than the passage of a wheel?

"The wheel wears a hollow" has surely got to be one of the classic old wives tales of woodworking. This was perpetuated by the professional who had learned to sharpen freehand to intimidate the beginner or apprentice. I personally have grave doubts about many of the results achieved by "professionals", but that is another very long story.

Off stone guides are generally cumbersome in my opinion, and the £5-xx Eclipse clone from APTC does a fine job in this workshop. I apply finger pressure to the blade, near the edge, and keep the weight off the guide itself.

This certainly works exceedingly well on waterstones which must be the softest sharpening kit available. Diamond stones must be the hardest and I can assure you that there is absolutely nothing to worry about if you wish to use a guide on one of these.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth