Plane (and sharpening) training?

[Paddy Roxburgh]

The book has been re-written. Nobody wants to know - the very idea of a rounded bevel gets people into a paddy!

Steady on there Jacob.
Paddy
(trad english bench user, freehand sharpener (mostly), not really concerned what others do but I would recommend a jig for the non mentored beginner so they can find out what sharp means)

 

[Jacob]

Oops sorry Paddy. Nothing personal!

 

[bugbear]

It's difficult because the "normal" way of sharpening (yes it was normal) has been more or less expunged from the record. The book has been re-written. Nobody wants to know - the very idea of a rounded bevel gets people into a paddy!

Traditional trade sharpening was indeed freehand, but any rounded and/or "thick" bevels were a problem to be avoided, not a desirable technique, and they were removed (by grinding) when they became excessive. Traditional trade sharpening also involved a sequence of stones and strops - any car booter can tell you of the enormous number of slate intermediate and finishing stones that stilll show up.

Any number of instructional/historical books going back to 1830 attest to this.

References and evidence available.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...
Any number of instructional/historical books going back to 1830 attest to this......

The point I have made many times is that what the books say isn't necessarily what people do.
You can imagine the scenario - author asks old codger how he sharpens - who's never thought about it much and all his chisels have rounded bevels although sharp. He's slightly embarrassed by this but in a flash he recalls what he was taught many years ago and starts chanting on about bevels; primary, secondary, tertiary, precise angles, etc etc, and the myths get perpetuated - but more to the point - nobody record what the old codger actually does, so effectively and so quickly.

Author asks about dovetail angles - old codger dredges the back of his brain and comes up with 1/6 1/8 even though he does them freehand and has never measured them. Author completely ignore all the furniture around him - to which he could have applied his sliding bevel and actually measured the angles people actually use.*

and so on....

*nb this is an interesting thing to do - in the real world you will encounter every angle from about 45º to 0º (at which point it is no longer a dovetail)

PS in fact an old codger wouldn't go on about "primary" and "secondary" bevels as these terms only came into routine use very recently. He might mention grinding at 25 and honing at 30

 

[bugbear]

...
Any number of instructional/historical books going back to 1830 attest to this......

The point I have made many times is that what the books say isn't necessarily what people do.

This requires every author in every country from 1830 - 1950 to be at worst a liar, and at best ignorant.

An alternative, simpler theory, is that the authors are indeed telling the truth.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

...
Any number of instructional/historical books going back to 1830 attest to this......

The point I have made many times is that what the books say isn't necessarily what people do.

This requires every author in every country from 1830 - 1950 to be at worst a liar, and at best ignorant.

An alternative, simpler theory, is that the authors are indeed telling the truth.

BugBear

No they simply trot out the official line. They aren't lying.
The DT one is the one you can test - go and have a look at some furniture. Either millions of woodworkers didn't know how to cut DTs or the rule is just an arbitrary (but ignorable) figure for guidance for beginners.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

The "official line" ... according to whom? :?

 

[Kalimna]

If it wasn't recorded in, say, books then how would you know what the majority did? As above, Occams Razor, and let's not ask how *that* one is sharpened

Adam

 

[lurker]

The problem in the past 30 years at least, first in hobby magazines and later on the net, is every writer has been in the pay of equipment sellers (somewhere along the line). That may be going away now communications to the masses is getting cheap.
However I have to agree with Jacob that the commonly "sold" idea you need to spend a fortune on kit otherwise you don't have hope of achieving a decent edge is Mad.

If owning stone costing a hundred quid does it for you fine, but don't tell the newbie it's the only way.
The most expensive thing in my sharpening kit is a knock off eclipse holder ..... I think it was £4 I went mad and bought 2.

Unless you ding a edge and need to grind it out, how on earth can it take more than 2 mins to get a working edge?
I admit to buying rough second hand chisels and plane blades and taking up to 30 minutes to getting them decent but that's a once in a life time operation.

 

[matthewwh]

I'm very much in the pay of the equipment sellers, but I still teach people to freehand and sell them an oilstone if that is the most appropriate method for their circumstances.

It's not about tucking as many tools into people as possible, it's all about trying to understand their requirements and equip them with the right tool and technique for the job so that they end up happy and come back.

In all but exceptional cases (dinged edges, 'new' used tools etc) I agree that 2 minutes is plenty, regardless of the technique or materials used.

 

[Jacob]

If it wasn't recorded in, say, books then how would you know what the majority did? As above, Occams Razor, and let's not ask how *that* one is sharpened

Adam

Evidence with DTs is in the furniture. Did these people who presumably knew how to make stuff, follow the rule? Answer - no not very often - only the arts n crafts brigade.
Evidence for sharpening:
1 many (most?) old tools (including Japanese ones) turn up with rounded bevels
2 Is a rounded bevel in anyway detrimental to the sharpness of a tool? Answer - no
3 Is a freehand flat bevel easier to produce than a rounded one, and would it give any advantage to a tool? Answer - no to both of these. In fact a flat bevel is quite difficult to produce freehand.
4 What do early sharpening jigs look like? Answer - nobody knows because they are extremely rare - hardly anybody used them
5 Why are old oil stones nearly always dished? Answer - because that's how they go with freehand sharpening and nobody would bother flattening them as there would be no advantage.
6 What was the quality of stuff produced in the bad old days when nobody knew how to do anything and things hadn't "moved on" technically?
Answer variable from rubbish to absolutely brilliant and virtually unrepeatable with todays limited skills

etc etc

 

[lurker]

I'm very much in the pay of the equipment sellers, but I still teach people to freehand and sell them an oilstone if that is the most appropriate method for their circumstances.

It's not about tucking as many tools into people as possible, it's all about trying to understand their requirements and equip them with the right tool and technique for the job so that they end up happy and come back.

In all but exceptional cases (dinged edges, 'new' used tools etc) I agree that 2 minutes is plenty, regardless of the technique or materials used.

I think we all agree you have a different business model to most.
People like You and Ian at dragon are jewels In a sea of scum

 

[lurker]

Most of the sharpening kit for sale is a solution looking for a problem, but that's the modern world all over.

 

[bugbear]

1 many (most?) old tools (including Japanese ones) turn up with rounded bevels

I've demolished (with actual evidence, not repeated assertions) your claim that the Japanese normally use (and aim for) rounded bevels before.

I'll just link to it, instead of repeating it.

post788026.html?hilit=%20flat%20bevels%20stick#p788026

So please do everybody the small respect of not repeating a demonstrably unsupported claim unless you have new evidence.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

1 many (most?) old tools (including Japanese ones) turn up with rounded bevels

I've demolished (with actual evidence, not repeated assertions) your claim that the Japanese normally use (and aim for) rounded bevels before.

I'll just link to it, instead of repeating it.

post788026.html?hilit=%20flat%20bevels%20stick#p788026

So please do everybody the respect of not repeating a provably false claim unless you have new evidence.

BugBear

Nobody "aims for" a rounded bevel - they just happen if you do an easy freehand technique. There's no particular point in a rounded or a flat bevel, either way it's the edge that counts.
Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos. Why would anybody go to the trouble of creating a flat bevel, freehand, when there is absolutely no point in it?

 

[bugbear]

Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos.

Evidence, not assertions, please.

BugBear

 

[Andy Kev.]

Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos.

Evidence, not assertions, please.

BugBear

That looks like evidence to me: if he's seen 'em, he's seen 'em. An assertion would be something along the lines of, "I bet Jap woodworkers use rounded chisels all the time".

 

[bugbear]

Evidence for rounded jap chisels?- see them in the hands of a jap woodworker at a show, seen them in photos.

Evidence, not assertions, please.

BugBear

That looks like evidence to me: if he's seen 'em, he's seen 'em. An assertion would be something along the lines of, "I bet Jap woodworkers use rounded chisels all the time".

No, that would be speculation.

BugBear

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Pedant. :lol:
Correct, though.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Personally I usually sharpen freehand apart from the steep bevel (50 degree) iron that came with my QS block plane, which I very rarely use, and sometimes with narrow chisels as I find them tricky to register on the stone. Against all the advice I sharpen a single bevel usually about 30 degrees. After some time I often feel that the the bevel has got steeper as I seem to increase the angle to get the edge, so I grind it back to 25-30 degrees on a sorby pro edge. Now I aim for a flat bevel but as has been pointed out on this forum before (by Matthew) there is no such thing as truly flat so it is probably a bit convex. If the edge is sharp then it really doesn't bother me if it is flat or a bit rounded. I have however read Paul Sellers specifically recommending a rounded bevel as it helps cutting concave profiles, presumably like a convex spoke shave or plane. I can follow this logic but the argument doesn't quite impress me enough to change what I do.
Paddy