Photographing work in customers house - a violation or not?

[profchris]

You do not have the right to take photos inside any private property. You must seek permission. In addition you need to be careful what you are doing with the photos if you are there in a professional capacity then the chances are you’ll come under commercial law and that is very different to the law applied to someone taking photos in a stately home for example.

There May be very good reasons why people don’t want their homes photographed. For example when you take a photo on a phone it records the GPS data for where that photo was taken. If I happen to have an expensive antique painting on the wall worth £30k I might not want that photo appearing when someone does an image search and showing exactly where it is. There are also often good reasons around children and protection of them. You should always get permission.

I would suggest you have T’s and Cs that state you take photos to evidence your work and how you leave the work and rooms. These photos are never published without the owners permission. Then get permission if you want to use the photos on your website etc.



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As a statement of law this is incorrect.

You have no right to take the photos, but the property owner has no right to object (with some exceptions, such as you agreed not to take photos as a condition of access). Commercial photographing is no different (unless you're photographing copyright works).

Where the property owner might have legal rights is where you share the photos with someone else. The main risks here are disclosing personal data or confidential information. A possible claim is infringing their privacy, but the law here is just being developed so this is low risk unless your client is a public figure. Even so, a picture of the shelves you just built is hardly a privacy problem!

What is ethical or polite is a different matter, but law is not based on either (though it sometimes reflects them).

The practical solution is to say in your estimate that you take photos of your work and explain if you use them for promotion purposes. This lets the client object before engaging you, and of course an unreasoning objection might tell you if you want the work

 

[rafezetter]

You do not have the right to take photos inside any private property. You must seek permission. In addition you need to be careful what you are doing with the photos if you are there in a professional capacity then the chances are you’ll come under commercial law and that is very different to the law applied to someone taking photos in a stately home for example.

There May be very good reasons why people don’t want their homes photographed. For example when you take a photo on a phone it records the GPS data for where that photo was taken. If I happen to have an expensive antique painting on the wall worth £30k I might not want that photo appearing when someone does an image search and showing exactly where it is. There are also often good reasons around children and protection of them. You should always get permission.

I would suggest you have T’s and Cs that state you take photos to evidence your work and how you leave the work and rooms. These photos are never published without the owners permission. Then get permission if you want to use the photos on your website etc.



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I get what you are saying, but this isn't about taking large open shots of a persons house or rooms, or valuables, this is about the ability to prove that I have done the work, should a customer decide to either not pay or claim I have caused damages, left the place in a mess etc etc. 2 years ago I didn;t take photos and ended up losing £350 because she claimed the work was poor quality, yes when I asked for the opportunity to set it right (though I knew there wasn't anything wrong) this was flatley refused. Unfortunately I was subbing for another who ALSO refused to pay me nor allow me to pursue it.

As I understand it from the GDPR there are certain times when taking photographs that permission is neither practical nor required.

If I'm refused permission to photograph my work, I have no defense against an unscrupulus customer.

As you say - put it in the T&C, which I will now have to draft something.

She was informed I would be taking pictures over the course of the works, and all the pictures in question are like the one's Dr Bob regularly show - the work and little else, but somehow she's now got it into her head (after FOUR years working for her) I'm causing some kind of serious personal violation.

Edit - sorry should have read the rest of the replies after.

@ Lon's yes I have insurance PL £5 mill - with legal cover, I made sure of that.

Despite my performances on here on occasion, I know when to let rip an when not - all emails have been calm, polite, apologising for the confusion etc.etc. She's been offered to see them, so far no reply.

 

[profchris]

I checked back and you've been paid, so that's a relief! Don't worry about the photos as I'm confident you'll face no legal action. First because I can't think of any legal basis for a claim (this is 40+ years as a law prof talking, though I suppose there might be unusual facts here which could change my mind ). Second, more important, the amount she might claim is way under the cost to her of chasing you. So relax.

In your position I'd consider emailing the photos to her, saying "Just to set your mind at rest, these are all the photos I took." But you'll want to think whether this will set her off even more, or might calm her down. Psychology rather than law, not my field.

How would you react if she calms down and asks for more work from you? Might be worth thinking about beforehand.

 

[rafezetter]

I checked back and you've been paid, so that's a relief! Don't worry about the photos as I'm confident you'll face no legal action. First because I can't think of any legal basis for a claim (this is 40+ years as a law prof talking, though I suppose there might be unusual facts here which could change my mind ). Second, more important, the amount she might claim is way under the cost to her of chasing you. So relax.

In your position I'd consider emailing the photos to her, saying "Just to set your mind at rest, these are all the photos I took." But you'll want to think whether this will set her off even more, or might calm her down. Psychology rather than law, not my field.

How would you react if she calms down and asks for more work from you? Might be worth thinking about beforehand.

Yes I have redone my draft to basically cut her some slack despite her original agressive accusation of breach of privacy, since after that initial situation she seems to have backed off somewhat, or at least not pressed the point - I don't think I'll do more work for her though if she feels £15 and hour is too much, I need to stop working myself towards bankruptcy and put my prices up

In the draft it asks how she would like copies - by email or via a flashdrive if she is prepared to provide one.

I really do appreciate all the supportive replies, many thanks.

 

[Jonathan S]

Sounds like your client might be a narcissist......
I feel for you, I've been there got the t shirt.
My 2 cents worth .....Try and forget the client she will probably forget you..... she will find someone else to bully.

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[MikeK]

Yes I have redone my draft to basically cut her some slack despite her original agressive accusation of breach of privacy, since after that initial situation she seems to have backed off somewhat, or at least not pressed the point - I don't think I'll do more work for her though if she feels £15 and hour is too much, I need to stop working myself towards bankruptcy and put my prices up

In the draft it asks how she would like copies - by email or via a flashdrive if she is prepared to provide one.

I really do appreciate all the supportive replies, many thanks.

I would drop the subject entirely. If you've been paid for the work to date and you're not going to do any more work for her, why continue any conversations with her?

 

[Bod]

I checked back and you've been paid, so that's a relief! Don't worry about the photos as I'm confident you'll face no legal action. First because I can't think of any legal basis for a claim (this is 40+ years as a law prof talking, though I suppose there might be unusual facts here which could change my mind ). Second, more important, the amount she might claim is way under the cost to her of chasing you. So relax.

In your position I'd consider emailing the photos to her, saying "Just to set your mind at rest, these are all the photos I took." But you'll want to think whether this will set her off even more, or might calm her down. Psychology rather than law, not my field.

How would you react if she calms down and asks for more work from you? Might be worth thinking about beforehand.

Yes I have redone my draft to basically cut her some slack despite her original agressive accusation of breach of privacy, since after that initial situation she seems to have backed off somewhat, or at least not pressed the point - I don't think I'll do more work for her though if she feels £15 and hour is too much, I need to stop working myself towards bankruptcy and put my prices up

In the draft it asks how she would like copies - by email or via a flashdrive if she is prepared to provide one.

I really do appreciate all the supportive replies, many thanks.

E-mail. That way you have a record of what was sent, and where to.

Bod

 

[Noel]

Yes I have redone my draft to basically cut her some slack despite her original agressive accusation of breach of privacy, since after that initial situation she seems to have backed off somewhat, or at least not pressed the point - I don't think I'll do more work for her though if she feels £15 and hour is too much, I need to stop working myself towards bankruptcy and put my prices up

In the draft it asks how she would like copies - by email or via a flashdrive if she is prepared to provide one.

I really do appreciate all the supportive replies, many thanks.

I would drop the subject entirely. If you've been paid for the work to date and you're not going to do any more work for her, why continue any conversations with her?

Exactly, you're just wasting your time engaging with the person. She's made it plainly obvious that she will not be availing of your services again and vice-versa.
You'd be best using the wasted time and energy already expended focusing on the next job and progressing your business.
Forget, learn and move on.

 

[D_W]

Same thing occurs here in the states. (given our name "the states"), much of the privacy law-related items vary state to state, but it's more typical of someone to complain and proprietor of the business will cease and desist.

My sister is a professional photographer. She specializes in babies and likes to rotate recent pictures on her webpage (which is probably linked to facebook - facebook is a theoretical thing to me at this point). She solved the issue with complaining clients (i thought it as a bit brazen of her to put pictures of peoples' babies up, anyway, even though you can't tell whose babies they are) by putting a check box on her fee agreements.

Turns out, there are lots of people who don't want their babies on line, but there are also plenty of people who want to boast about their babies being chosen to be on the front page rotation.

For contractors, etc, regardless of state law, it's common to offer a concession to use the picture (something meaningless but measurable) or just ask. The bigger issue than the law is a potential loss of a future customer.

 

[will1983]

I take photos of all my works, apart from the liability record I like to post them to social media and my website as a form of advertising. If you haven't already got a FB & IG page, you need them to get your name out there among your prospective Clients.

However I don't just snap away, I always do it with the Client present at the end of an install or when I go back in a couple of weeks to check everything is ok. That way the Client is fully informed of what I am photographing and has the opportunity to "sanitize" a particular scene before I click. I've only ever had one Client that wanted to take a photo of her daughter off a shelf before I took my photos though, the rest couldn't have cared less.

I have a clause in my Ts & Cs covering a joint inspection upon completion of the works. This allows me to display my work, explain any instructions on how to use and care for what I've built. Any defects /residual works are to be identified and a date for snagging completion set in this inspection. Whilst the Client is having a good look at what I've done is when I take my photos for the records.

This all sounds to me like a pretty poor attempt at trying to dodge paying your last invoice. I guess in the meantime she has been advised that it isn't going to work so to just pay you and move on.

Mark it down to experience, good luck and get those rates raised!

 

[rafezetter]

Ok, in reply to what people have said since my last post - She has been sent an email reply stating that the reason for my taking pictures is strictly protection against any legal claims and that in this particular instance no advertising related pictures were taken, so no permission required - I've checked this, I'm allowed to provide for myself a defense against any legal dispute regarding my work.

I've offered her the opportunity to see copies of every photo taken in the last four years, so she can see for herself what they contain, but I will be retaining copies in my records. I also checked my email records and forwarded an email sent to her four years ago which stated I would be taking reference photographs, and that was not disputed at the time or since, until this incident.

That was on Monday - as of today, no reply of any kind.

With luck that's shut her down and will be the last I hear from her.

Again I appreciate the words of support and advice; very much a lesson learned.

 

[W666]

Gobsmacked that a client thinks £15 PH is too MUCH. You get £10 in a PAYE supermarket job these days.
I do try to give a fixed price to customers, and more often they ask what the hourly rate is. I tell them I run a business and the hourly rate is irrelevant and giving that figure I use to calculate my labour, gives a misleading representation of wages. If they persist I either walk away or go as far as telling them that at best I see 50% of what I charge for 'labour' into my pocket as wages.

 

[tony_s]

I wonder if saying that £15 is too much is just a bullying tactic to put you on the back foot from the start?

 

[profchris]

When I was consulting to a City law firm I'd occasionally point out to a client that the hourly rate didn't mean much. Of course they could find a cheaper lawyer, and pay her or him to read my book, but my overall cost would be less.

So I'd focus on your estimated price, not the hourly rate. If the client can't find a cheaper total of comparative quality, there's nothing to negotiate.

 

[craigs]

You do not have the right to take photos inside any private property. You must seek permission. In addition you need to be careful what you are doing with the photos if you are there in a professional capacity then the chances are you’ll come under commercial law and that is very different to the law applied to someone taking photos in a stately home for example.

There May be very good reasons why people don’t want their homes photographed. For example when you take a photo on a phone it records the GPS data for where that photo was taken. If I happen to have an expensive antique painting on the wall worth £30k I might not want that photo appearing when someone does an image search and showing exactly where it is. There are also often good reasons around children and protection of them. You should always get permission.

I would suggest you have T’s and Cs that state you take photos to evidence your work and how you leave the work and rooms. These photos are never published without the owners permission. Then get permission if you want to use the photos on your website etc.



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^^^^ what he said, having dabbled in this game, legally you need to seek permission from the land owner to take photos and ideally you should have a release signed with your terms which states the use of the photos. This thinking that "its my cabinet so i have rights to take photos of it" in someone else's house is nonsense"

 

[rafezetter]

Thanks for the new replies, an update (for the curious) after giving the customer 2 emails asking how she would like to see them; email attachements, in person at a time suitable to me, or put on a pendrive supplied by her - I've heard nothing, nada, no response at all, so I sent another email offering the same, with a deadline of 3 days or I will consider that matter closed and any future demand to see them will be denied.

No reply.

Maybe she realised she's been too demanding on this occasion when all previous occasions have been allowed, or maybe she's realised she's soured the situation and will find it difficult to get another to do the work I do for the price I do it.

Either way I've learned (finally) that "mates rates" will have me going broke slowly, so my prices are going up in Jan, and only a very select few will get my previous rate.

Thanks again everyone for your input and perspective

 

[Trevanion]

Rafe, someone told me a long time ago,

"You start working cheap, you'll always be working cheap"

There's truth in that, you work for a 'certain' clientele you'll always be working for that kind of clientele because that's who'll you will be recommended to by previous customers of that position, and it's hard to get out of that rut.

 

[Max Power]

Always take photographs. I had a call about three days after I installed a kitchen to say there was a scratch on the worktop and demanding new worktops . I drove across the next day , she was out but the son was in . I spent a good ten minutes finding the finest of scratches that would never be seen from two feet away.
The worse part though was that Safestyle UK were there knocking a window out to fit french doors with brick dust everywhere and no dustsheets. The worktops were also covered in tools.
I took photos of the whole scene.
She remained adamant I should fit new worktops, so I contacted Safestyles installation manager at the local depot and she was being paid by them for new worktops but wanted me to do them FOC

 

[Geoff_S]

Always take photographs. I had a call about three days after I installed a kitchen to say there was a scratch on the worktop and demanding new worktops . I drove across the next day , she was out but the son was in . I spent a good ten minutes finding the finest of scratches that would never be seen from two feet away.
The worse part though was that Safestyle UK were there knocking a window out to fit french doors with brick dust everywhere and no dustsheets. The worktops were also covered in tools.
I took photos of the whole scene.
She remained adamant I should fit new worktops, so I contacted Safestyles installation manager at the local depot and she was being paid by them for new worktops but wanted me to do them FOC

It fair takes your breath away :shock: