Phillips bits

[AES]

Not sure if the poster is a troll or not.

But I do believe that a lot of personal experience/preference comes into all this screw head choice business.

Plus, as a DIY'er/hobbyist I find you don't get much choice really, because I normally buy in small quantities - buy a box of 100 screws (that's a big purchase in 1 size for me) and basically you're stuck with whatever the dealer has on the shelf at that time. NOT like a professional, where I guess he/she buys in thousands (especially "normal" sizes) and can say "I want so-and-so heads".

Personally I don't like Philips all that much, Pozi is MUCH better, AND stays more or less on the driver most times (IME), and Torx are excellent (for transmitting the drive without "caming out" as well as staying on). BUT the only experience I have of Robertson is the screws that come with Kreg pocket hole jigs and frankly I'm definitely NOT impressed - on the contrary!

But I find that ALL socket head types (screws and bolts) are a right PITA when it comes to clearing muck, dried paint, and rust out of the sockets when you want to remove them.

Like I said, mainly personal preferences I guess; but yes, agreed, the screwdriver/bit you use makes a big difference too.

I think it was Phil Pascoe who linked to that Wikipedia info on screw drives - thanks for that whoever it was, very useful and informative. Well worth a look if you haven't already (and includes some interesting "history/background" info too). Thanks.

 

[jeremyduncombe]

I use torx mainly for bicycles etc - small, delicate jobs where I need fine control when I am tightening a bolt. I can’t really see the need in woodwork / construction where Posi works perfectly well. The problem is usually that someone spends a lot of money on a project, then buys cheap screwdriver bits and keeps using them long after they are worn out. Buy a box of decent quality ( e.g. Wera ) size 2 Pozi bits and throw them away as soon as they show the slightest signs of wear. I also resist the temptation to re-use screws, standard Pozi wood screws are cheap enough in bulk.
If a screw is firmly stuck, it is easy to strip the slot using an electric screwdriver. A ratchet bit holder needs a bit more effort, but allows much better control of the force applied to the screw. As soon as it starts to come loose, you can use the electric driver to finish the job.

 

[Bodgers]

Having recently moved to France from Canada, i now have to put up with the poorly designed Phillips screw system. Canada uses a square drive system ( Robertson) The biggest advantage of the Robertson screw is that it will stay on the screwdriver/driver bit, this gives you back your other hand (Left or Right). Let me say that another way, the Robertson system gives you an extra hand, It's like using two hands to put a Phillips screw in and being given a third hand, so in essence by moving here Phillips has taken away my left hand as i now need it to hold their badly designed screw. Can anyone tell me how i can get my hand back? Thanks

I'm in the UK and I use the Robertson/square screws and bits all the time. eBay sells all different sizes and types. You can get the Kreg stuff as well.

I like the square drive system, but I wouldn't say it has a huge advantage over say magnetic torx.

 

[Eric The Viking]

I'm in the UK and I use the Robertson/square screws and bits all the time. eBay sells all different sizes and types. You can get the Kreg stuff as well.
I like the square drive system, but I wouldn't say it has a huge advantage over say magnetic torx.

Wot ee said. But I do like Robertson, would use nothing else if it were possible, but although available they are a bit pricey. I usually buy Kreg ones via eBay or Amazon (eBay is not always cheapest).

Torx have a big issue, which is that the hole doesn't go well with countersink-headed screws. Of course it can do, and T20 works well with #8 sized screws, but for some daft reason most screw suppliers use T25. These holes are too big for the available "meat", meaning they either make the hole shallow or risk heads snapping in two. So they do that (make the heads too shallow), resulting in chewed-up drivers, and damaged heads. And although you can drive them hard, they don't sit well on the end of a driver, because the holes are too shallow, so they are a PITA in awkward situations, anywhere gravity isn't helpful.

Which oddly takes me back to why I really, really like the Robertson pattern...

E.

 

[phillipsbitssuck]

Hi all, Ok, so today I cleaned house and set myself up with Posidrive screws and bits, the screws will still not stay on the bit. I am surprised that the manufactures cannot design a system whereby they will, But I am over it, life's too short. I will get a new magnetic holder and or some blutack. I will always miss Robertson screws but when in Rome do as the Romans. Thanks for all your help, "Everyday is a school day"

 

[Eric The Viking]

Get some diamond coated bits. Unless you want to impact-driver the life out of them, you won't go back to normal ones.

 

[thetyreman]

the wera or wiha bits will stay on the heads trust me, I have used cheap bits all my life up until this week and the better quality bits do not slip, actual screw quality varies as well.

 

[AES]

As per my previous post in this thread, I really do think that a lot of personal preference/previous experience comes into this.

@Eric the Viking: You wrote, QUOTE: Torx have a big issue, which is that the hole doesn't go well with countersink-headed screws. Of course it can do, and T20 works well with #8 sized screws, but for some daft reason most screw suppliers use T25. These holes are too big for the available "meat", meaning they either make the hole shallow or risk heads snapping in two. So they do that (make the heads too shallow), resulting in chewed-up drivers, and damaged heads. And although you can drive them hard, they don't sit well on the end of a driver, because the holes are too shallow, so they are a PITA in awkward situations, anywhere gravity isn't helpful.
UNQUOTE:

I don't KNOW this for a fact but I THINK that a problem you're having with Torx is the "incompatibility" between the English screw gauge number system (No. 6, 8, 10, etc, etc,) and the Metric basic screw OD system (i.e. screws are sized by the nominal diameter of the shaft as measured just under the head).

Although I agree with a previous poster that Torx heads aren't really necessary for general wood work (Pozi works fine, but I'm NOT a professional or a site worker and don't drive screws all day please note), when I buy a, say, 4.0 mm diameter wood screw (a common "general-use" size for me) there does not seem to be the inconsistency between the amount of "meat" on the screw head and the size of the Torx head chosen - in my e.g. above, ALL the 4.0 mm dia wood screws I've ever bought ALWAYS have a T20 head which gives plenty of "meat" remaining in the head after the recess has been cut.

I GUESS that in the Metric norm system for wood screws here, there's a definite proportional relationship between the OD of the shaft and the OD of the head (as the OD increases, so does the OD of the head; and as shaft OD decreases vice-versa), so I'm wondering if the norms for the OD of the different number Torx heads increases it does so in step with the OD of the Metric screw head?

I also GUESS that a similar relationship exists between the English screw gauge system and head OD also exists, but just wonder if that screw gauge/head OD relationship is somehow incompatible with the Torx driver head ODs?

As said, I dunno for sure, but could be likely?? Certainly whatever Metric screws I buy here, regardless of screw manufacturer, they always have the same Torx head/shaft OD relationship - as per my e.g. above, my 4.00 mm screw will ALWAYS have a T20 head.

OTOH, you seem to be saying (if I've understood you correctly) if you buy a No 8 screw, maybe it will have a T"x" head, maybe a T"y" head - i.e. maybe the manufacturers reach different Torx driver size conclusions because of the inconsistency between Torx head driver OD norms and English screw head OD norms?

Dunno, just idle wondering (nothing better to do right now, shame on me)

 

[Sean Hellman]

I use a hammer or as it is also know a Manchester screwdriver, never had cam out. :lol: The Robertson seams to be ideal and one of the most sensible designs, never seen or used one. Such a shame its not widely available. I also have issues with hex and often need to replace or grind down allen keys.

 

[peter-harrison]

I use Pozi for almost everything except show areas such as hinges, where I use the Wurth star drive screws.
They are quite expensive but they have all the qualities of Torx or Robertson. Plus they look very pretty. The bits are brilliant- I have been using these screws for about 15 years and I have never had one break or wear out. If I hadn't lost or given some away I would still be using the original 5 I bought when I started.
I throw Phillips away when I get them as part of something- they are too annoying to have in the screw box!

 

[Rorschach]

Interesting video today. Seems Robertson still have their problems. I must admit I do like my impact driver and use it much more than my drill for screws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCzelJrFp9E

 

[AES]

Thanks for that Rorschach. I'd never met Robertson screws before I got a Kreg PH jig but this confirms my own feelings (prejudices?), i.e. they're not all that much good really because the torque ends up being transmitted on just the 4 corners of the square (of the bit/driver, or of the screw itself).

Personally, from the cam-out POV I much prefer Pozi or Torx.

BTW, in the film I notice Mathias talks about "philips" but from the look of the driver he used it looked more like Pozi to me (though I couldn't see the head of the screw he used, just the driver tip).

But he is right, Robertsons do stay on the driver quite well when you're screwing up from under. But then so do Pozis and Torx, especially if you use a tiny bit of Blutack on the tip (too much fiddling about for the "profis" though, I admit).

I should perhaps add that I don't own and have never used an impact driver (unless a big spiral/pump screwdriver with me leaning against the handle counts)?