Petition for quality saw files...

[FenceFurniture]

Here are a couple of diagrams to explain what Claw is talking about with the "Auto-Fleam" generated by a taper file.

And a couple of other useful charts:

And a saw that is in urgent need of a good file :lol:

 

[FenceFurniture]

Where things are falling down:
• Grinding of blank - woeful in most cases
• Tooth cutting - generally appears to be the least troublesome part. Poor results are from poor grinding rather than poor tooth cutting

The correct corner radii, forging the blank shape, the grinding of the blank and the quality control are the areas of most concern.

Supporting evidence for this statement.

This is a (genuine) Swiss manufactured Needle File. Note the grinding smoothness of the shoulder, which is indicative of the whole blank before toothing.

...and the subsequent teeth produced (even though they are Double Cut):

Note the beautiful stamping of the name that would have us believe that they indeed manufactured it themselves, rather than telling us it was made for them by a rather well known first quality Swiss manufacturer:

One of my research assistants here actually spoke to them by phone a couple of weeks ago, and they confirmed that have not made their own files for about 20 years, and that they are now produced for them in India, with the exception of their Needle Files and Precision Engineer's Files. So there is no speculation here.


On the other hand, here is a file produced "elsewhere" (it is a 6" ****) What?

That sort of blank grinding leads to teeth like this:

and THAT leads to this:

And the pride of workmanship can be seen in the Logo:

Are you seeing any similarities between all these files?

• The grinding is the same
  The tooth forming is the same
  The steel colour is the same
  They all have printed logos
  The logos are all the same smudged black ink, and the same font

Other than that, the differences are.....what, exactly? Hmmm?


That poor standard of gringing leads to what may as well be a double cut tooth pattern - which is eschewed for Saw Files because it doesn't yield a good surface.

I go back to my Plane Blade analogy: you must have polished surfaces to get a proper edge. We do not need (even close) to a polished surface for a file blank. However, I do believe that they should at least not be ground with a rock picked up from the yard (I know that's a cheaper method, but really....)

 

[FenceFurniture]

• Hardening & Tempering - appears to be very patchy, sometimes absurdly so
• Quality Control - Wassat?

You may have wondered what I was alluding to. The Pferd Files were delivered to me last week as well. The pic above (of the shoulder with logo) is the same file as these two pics:

In the box of 10, there were 8 like this. They were no instructions to wear safety glasses when using the file.

Btw, that file has not been used (by me anyway).

A well respected German manufacturer, not only lets stuff like this go to market in this condition, they are happy to put their name on it. Note that it says "Made by Pferd" and not "Made for Pferd". There is no indication on the box of the country of manufacture. Would they have us think that this is what German quality has come to?

 

[FenceFurniture]

Now there is a japanese manufacturer making the full range of Taper files, and I'll bet that they are very good quality (if they are MiJ), and probably a reasonable price. I have grave concerns that the tapers are correct, but that could be ascertained by sighting some samples. I have sent them an email, but have had no response as yet. Schtoo (Stu) from Tools From Japan (aka TFJ - "Splitter!") is going to give them a tickle up on Monday.

However, even if the files are perfect, they may still be an overwhelming problem in dealing with them, if some of their English translations on their website are anything to go by. Here is how they describe the use of a file:
"Conventionally, as the tip of the blade is processed by electrolytic polishing (PAT) and the sharp blade of the knife-like material is processed in advance, the concave part bosom is deep and suitable for the material that is easy to cause clog like stiffening plastic, bakelite, wood and other light metals."
"It the industry first, we make both ends type file surface, made easy to guarantee the balance of suffering."

Ahhh...say what?

I don't know about you, but I find the idea of a concave bosom hideously unsatisfying. Whole or part. And as for any resultant stiffening - I very much doubt it. Plastic or otherwise.

You begin to understand why I am loathe to approach them if their range of files actually needs to be modified slightly (tapers).

 

[FenceFurniture]

I am waiting on two more deliveries of files to arrive - one from Glen Drake Toolworks in the US which is a non-tapered file made in Japan that Kevin Drake describes as "hard to imagine a file being better", and some Bahcos from the Australian agent.

The files will then be assembled and the logos will be ground (or washed) off, and they will be engraved with a unique number. Three very experienced Saw Filers over here will then have one corner each to assess, and they will be using the same piece of saw plate for this, to keep everything equal. It will be a "blind" test.

I do not expect these tests to go very well at all (in terms of good file results). I expect that the Japanese jobbie will be triumphant with the Bahcos coming a distant second, and everything else way behind, or failing completely. This is just my forecast.

From there, I will be preparing an extensive document for presentation to the manufacturer. It will include survey results from the 15 collaborators on what they would like to see, test results from the three Aussies on all the files available currently, a list of petition signatories & comments, careful documentation of the current problems, and new design specifications in great detail.

I would like to think that I will see a prototype in around 3-4 months. These will be sent to the collaborators (15, maybe more by then) for assessment, followed by a little tweaking, and then production.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

FenceFurniture - the technical research you outline above is impressive, and given that you're undertaking it for the benefit of the worldwide woodworking community, very highly commendable.

May I, in the spirit of wishing to see a thorough and comprehensive package of information to present to manufacturer(s), tentatively offer a small point of constructive criticism?

If I were the manufacturer receiving such a document, I'd be very interested to see an assessment of market size. I suspect that many outside the world of woodwork would perceive the hand-tool market to be niche and diminishing. If data can be gathered, perhaps from the quality tool retailers of several countries, showing actual annual market for saw files and whether or not that market has grown over the last few years, it could well sway a decision on investment of development capital. I may not be keen to invest time and money for just a couple of thousand units a year; tens of thousands a year and a trend to growth may well interest me.

Thanks for all the effort on behalf of wood butchers and finer craftsmen everywhere - may your efforts be rewarded!

 

[FenceFurniture]

May I, in the spirit of wishing to see a thorough and comprehensive package of information to present to manufacturer(s), tentatively offer a small point of constructive criticism?

Absolutely - anytime, CC. That's what it's all about. I won't ever pretend that I have the total solution before consultation with relevant parties from different skill sets and perspectives. That's half the reason for the detail in the posts here - get people thinking and commenting. That detail is elsewhere to see, but front and centre is better.

Coming to your ideas on market research: one retailer in NY uses and sells about 1500 files per year, and you know how many retailers there are in the States - heaps. I also have a pretty good connection at Lee Valley - R.Lee. He will be quite genorous with his info I'm sure. Another chap in Germany is on speaking terms with Thomas Lie Nielsen, and my email has been forwarded to him, and also Chris Schwarz.

So, you are spot on - $$ drives it, although the first choice manufacturer isn't € driven, funnily enough. They are boutique tool makers who have a lot of file making machines that don't do much (so my kinda guys). Depending upon demand it may transpire that these machines aren't up to the numbers. I would have thought that there must be any amount of file making machinery floating around Europe - he might even get paid to take it away.

As a "wet the finger in the breeze" guestimate I'd say there is a conservative bare minmum €100,000 turnover (wholesale) per annum to be had for a tap on the shoulder, no marketing whatsoever apart from posting out some samples.

Cheers
Brett

 

[Corneel]

Wow Fence, that's more then I ever knew about sawfiles!
I've had plenty of files with bad corner teeth. That is a pretty obvious defect, even I can see. And the F. **** files I use most often are quite hard and brittle, not very goo either.

Thanks for diving into this. Of course I signed the petition, allthough I am very small scale sawfiler with just 10 saws to maintane. Very occasionally Ii make a saw or repair a vintage one, so I know what ot takes in files.

 

[rafezetter]

Signed for future interest. I'll need good files for the vintage saws I'll be buying from you older fellers once you hang up the toolbelt for good. There's something that seems far more "traditional and honest" about old tools even though they were all that was available at the time. 40 years from now you'll have people selling "vintage" veritas planes on ebay...

 

[rafezetter]

Where things are falling down:
• Grinding of blank - woeful in most cases
• Tooth cutting - generally appears to be the least troublesome part. Poor results are from poor grinding rather than poor tooth cutting

The correct corner radii, forging the blank shape, the grinding of the blank and the quality control are the areas of most concern.

Supporting evidence for this statement.

This is a (genuine) Swiss manufactured Needle File. Note the grinding smoothness of the shoulder, which is indicative of the whole blank before toothing.



...and the subsequent teeth produced (even though they are Double Cut):



Note the beautiful stamping of the name that would have us believe that they indeed manufactured it themselves, rather than telling us it was made for them by a rather well known first quality Swiss manufacturer:



One of my research assistants here actually spoke to them by phone a couple of weeks ago, and they confirmed that have not made their own files for about 20 years, and that they are now produced for them in India, with the exception of their Needle Files and Precision Engineer's Files. So there is no speculation here.


On the other hand, here is a file produced "elsewhere" (it is a 6" ****) What?

View attachment 6

That sort of blank grinding leads to teeth like this:

View attachment 6

and THAT leads to this:





And the pride of workmanship can be seen in the Logo:







Are you seeing any similarities between all these files?

• The grinding is the same
  The tooth forming is the same
  The steel colour is the same
  They all have printed logos
  The logos are all the same smudged black ink, and the same font

Other than that, the differences are.....what, exactly? Hmmm?


That poor standard of gringing leads to what may as well be a double cut tooth pattern - which is eschewed for Saw Files because it doesn't yield a good surface.

I go back to my Plane Blade analogy: you must have polished surfaces to get a proper edge. We do not need (even close) to a polished surface for a file blank. However, I do believe that they should at least not be ground with a rock picked up from the yard (I know that's a cheaper method, but really....)

Geez.... what a state of those files!! My modellers needle files are much better than that - but I've had them nigh on 15 years and they weren't new then.

If I saw those for sale I'd accuse the shop of selling counterfeit goods as genuine "swiss made" items. Everyone knows what swiss made looks like - that's precisely (or not so it seems) why it's become synonymous with quality. Those just look awful even to my untrained eye.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

It is a bit of an eye opener isn't it? Makes me feel like someone is trying to take me for a mug, but we're onto them.

 

[FenceFurniture]

Signed for future interest. I'll need good files for the vintage saws I'll be buying from you older fellers once you hang up the toolbelt for good.

This is quite a major point rafezetter. During this "campaign" I have seen a number of people saying "Problem? What problem? I buy NOS files and they are great.".

This is extraordinarily small picture thinking, and attitudes like that are part of the problem. Have any of those people stopped to think about just how exactly finite the supply of NOS files (or anything) is? I have great trouble with this kind of "I'm alright Jack" thinking. What about the rest of the world eh?

Furthermore, this is self-defeating short term thinking. I'd love them to explain what they'll be doing when the supply of NOS files is finally exhausted (probably won't be long either). As the supply goes critical the prices will rise, and they'll become harder and harder to find, and these people will have to spend more and more time hunting down the supply, instead of getting on with the sharpening so they can get on with cutting timber so they can get on with MAKING STUFF.

Or is scouring eBay their real hobby?

The whole argument just beggars belief quite frankly.

Regards
FF (not FFF, if you don't mind :lol: )

 

[FenceFurniture]

There are 343 signatures on the petition now, and the braekdown, counrty by country is:
ASIA PACIFIC
Australia 48
New Zealand 2

THE AMERICAS
United States 249
Canada 12

UK & EUROPE
United Kingdom 15
Germany 4
Switzerland 1
Netherlands 1
Spain 1
Serbia 1
Hungary 1

SCANDINAVIA
Denmark 1
Norway 2
Sweden 4

AFRICA
South Africa 1


Should I post the populations of some of those countries? Might put a bit of perspective on it.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Psst! I won't tell anyone, but Scandinavia consists of Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

 

[Reggie]

Looking at the state of most of the files and how they're made, it almost smells like collusion to produce a junk product to promote the sale of power tools. I know that's a reach but if you look at it logically, with a well built file set and the saws your dad gave you, the saws will probably last you a lifetime, just like a decent hand plane.

One thing I wonder about though is how widespread the skills are to do hand sharpening of saw blades? any monkey can wave a raspy thing at a bit of metal but not everyone will be able to do it well.

I wonder if your campaign could be backed up with a sacrificial saw and some video of using good vs bad files and high quality videos to show how to get a good edge without using 100s of £s worth of jigs, if people see how easy it can be to get results they may be more inclined to pick up a hand saw, then respect and maintain it.

I've got a couple of ripsaws in the garage that need de-rusting, I'd rather spend £10-15 on a decent file to fix them up than junk them and buy new but only if I know I'm not going to waste money on a decent file to find out I'm not skilled enough to sharpen the blades.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Reggie - Your wish is my command. Grab a cold one and some popcorn.

http://youtu.be/u-_MF2Mnxwc

Enjoy!

 

[FenceFurniture]

One thing I wonder about though is how widespread the skills are to do hand sharpening of saw blades? any monkey can wave a raspy thing at a bit of metal but not everyone will be able to do it well.

I wonder if your campaign could be backed up with a sacrificial saw and some video of using good vs bad files and high quality videos to show how to get a good edge without using 100s of £s worth of jigs, if people see how easy it can be to get results they may be more inclined to pick up a hand saw, then respect and maintain it.

Reggie I think that many people can be turned off trying to acquire the skill because the first time they try it with a rubbish file (unknowingly) and get a poor result, they'll be turned right off - tune out. They will believe that the skillset is beyond them, when in fact it's not.

When the files come back from testing I will be doing another series of pics. This will show the state of the files before and after, and also the quality of the teeth they cut in the saw plate (which won't be part of an actual saw).

There are already a huge number of videos available on YouTube etc, but you could do a lot worse than to visit the world's biggest Woodworking Forum, and have a looks in the "Hand Tools - unpowered" section.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/f152/

Andy, noted and adjusted.

 

[Reggie]

I remember that video, I saw the first 5 or so minutes of it a week or so ago but I will give it a proper watch now That's got to be a good thing though, you've encouraged me to sign the petition and look into using hand tools more than I have been.

 

[FenceFurniture]

That's got to be a good thing though, you've encouraged me to sign the petition and look into using hand tools more than I have been.

YES!

 

[Reggie]

FenceFurniture, agreed, although I'm finding there are loads of things that will might put a beginner off before they get to sharpening their own saws :-D

With regard to videos, sure, I appreciate there are already some on youtube but I'm really talking about doing it specifically to back up the campaign, to get the message out 'go and look on youtube' doesn't really do it, however 2hours of Andy is probably going to do the trick.