Petition for quality saw files...

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Just goes to show, you can't believe all you read in tool catalogues. It explains a lot about quality control then.

Mike.

 

[Reggie]

I've seen this problem in a few hobby markets now, market pressures (price) seem to drive things these days, it seems like the French manufacturer is the way forward, they seem to be open to talking to people about improvements.

Of course another issue could be the retailers, they're buying the shoddy stuff and selling it on, perhaps more complaints need to be levelled at them for supply shoddy products in the first place? I wonder how much more weight there would be to the campaign if you started hitting retailers about it and those retailers then passing on their concerns further up the supply chain. Perhaps withdrawing your patronage from retailers that are happy to gouge you for price over quality?

There is no real reason for these products not to be produced properly, even if it is made in china, the Chinese aren't inherently bad producers of items but clearly these items are being made at a price where every expense IS being spared.

 

[Shrubby]

I have a box of the Stubbs taper saw extra slim - I haven't used them enough to compare with my inherited Grobet/vallorbe/Nicholson double enders
I have read a german test of files which put most of the commonly available files through the german test standard and none were as durable as files of 50 years ago
I'll try and compile a list of all the European file brands and someone can plod through and see if there is anything that isn't outsourced to Portugal India Poland or China
I think Japanese manufacturers would be worth investigating

P.S. My Dad did an engineering course in the 50's and had to file a cube - and then file this into a sphere !
Matt

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Shrubby - I did a 4 year engineering apprenticeship when I left school. I had to file a cube too. That was hard enough to get all faces parallel, square and the same length. I can't imagine what it must have been like to then have to file it into a sphere. Rather him than me.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Reggie - Brett tells me that a fairly major retailer (in the boutique tool sense) in the USA "can't wait to get Grobet out of their hair"

 

[Brit (Andy)]

A couple of other points for clarification:

Classes of files are:
• Needle files - always double cut and do not leave as good a surface finish as a result. the triangular Needles are ALWAYS 3 Square meaning that the edges are not cut - not suitable for saws as it leaves a sharp gullet which creates a potential fracture point. Not a real big in fine tooth saws though. However, people are only using needles in the absence of a proper 3 or 4" DEST file.
• Milled files - are exactly that - they are milled (i.e. material is removed from the blank to create the teeth)
• Engineer's Files (and I always insist on the apostrophe) - are always double cut
• Saw files are single cut for a superior finish. The are made from a higherChromium content steel to all other files because it adds toughness. This is critical for durability because all the force is on a tiny bit of steel (maximum 12.7 x 2mm x 2 faces = 51 sq,mm for a 2 tpi saw - which woiuld be a 3 ppi).
• Precision Files are the classy brothers of Engineer's Files. The have a higher polish applied to the blank grinding because the teeth can be much finer, and therefore require the smoothest surface before toothing.

Do not confuse a Mill File with a Milled file. A Mill file is for use in a Saw Mill.

To see a manufacturer who does care about quality in action, take a look at this short video of Liogier Hand Stitched rasps. Gotta love a bit of Handel in a factory Btw, when he is stitching the rasp, he has slowed down so we can see what he is doing.

http://www.liogier-france.fr/what-is-a- ... g=en#video

 

[Reggie]

That is a superb video, it's also opened my eyes to the fact that files can be left or right handed, being left handed that might explain a few things.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Yeah Reggie - I'm a lefty too and it does make a difference.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

What would the general opinion be as to a fair price for a top quality saw file?

Any manufacturer taking on the challenge would presumably have to make a range from, say, 4" extra slim to 8" regular. The extremes would presumably be quite low volume in sales terms, so economies of scale would not be possible.

Some special shapes of precision file can cost £30 a pop or more. Would you pay that for an 8" regular saw file, even a top quality one? How about £15 or so for a 5" or 6" slim, the sort of sizes you'd need for 6ppi or 11ppi type saws?

Low volume manufacture will always require a premium retail price. Would we be prepared to make enough of a market to interest a manufacturer?

 

[MIGNAL]

Bahco/grobet currently sell at around £5/£6 for a 5 " XX slim. £15 does not seem excessive if it lasts twice as long and does a better and/or easier job. Your £15 should easily file 15 saws +. Probably less than £1 per saw sharpening.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Cheshirechappie - You raise some good points and at the end of the day it might prove unfeasible. What I do know is that if we do nothing now, the situation is sure to get worse in the years to come. Exactly what price point the files end up retailing at remains to be seen. Personally, I would definitely pay a premium for a quality tool that I could order with confidence in the knowledge that it will get the job done quicker, to a higher standard and last longer than anything we currently have available on the market.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

More details from Brett:

What it comes down to are the following KPIs for file making:
• Correct corner radiii for the file & tooth size, and keeping the teeth on the corners rather than on the floor
• Choice of steel - critical
• Forging blank shape - critical (I'm thinking taper here)
• Grinding of blank - needs to be of a reasonable standard to get a single cut standard of surface finish, otherwise double cut would have always been used. Smooth enough to prevent fracture points being created
• Tooth cutting - critical
• Hardening & Tempering - critical
• Quality Control - needs to at least exist in some form or other

Where things are falling down:
• Correct corner radiii for the file & tooth size - the teeth on the corners are too often on the floor. Currently the biggest point of contention - some files should be used with safety glasses
• Choice of steel - may be reasonable, not sure
• Forging blank shape - Tapers are virtually non-existent, and what miserable taper is there (to justify it being called a Taper File) is most commonly utterly useless
• Grinding of blank - woeful in most cases
• Tooth cutting - generally appears to be the least troublesome part. Poor results are from poor grinding rather than poor tooth cutting
• Hardening & Tempering - appears to be very patchy, sometimes absurdly so
• Quality Control - Wassat?

The correct corner radii, forging the blank shape, the grinding of the blank and the quality control are the areas of most concern.

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Brett assures me that economies of scale will be possible - there is a worldwide market demand to satisfy. 4" XX slims are not only the biggest problem, they are one of the most commonly used sizes as people drift towards very fine tooth saws for very fine quality work.

The point that MIGNAL makes is extremely valid - people are paying big money for bespoke saws and using crap files to sharpen them. Would they take their plane blades out to the garden path to sharpen them? Furthermore, the new files will not be as much as £15.00 - currently a 12" regular of the right quality is not a whole lot more than that.

Just in case anybody has missed it, what is happening here is a pre-planned, co-ordinated worldwide strike. Brett has spent the last month researching and discussing deeply with top-flight saw makers/doctors, woodworkers in general, and a manufacturer. These discussions can very often go into "detail minutiae", for that is where the devil and truth lies.

This co-ordinated strike is a once-only opportunity to get this problem off the discussion table for good, and get on with saw sharpening, so we can get on with MAKING STUFF!

 

[FenceFurniture]

Well, I thought I should stick my head in. Andy has been doing a great job, but he's got some timber to cut today (hope your saws are sharp Andy).

The main thing I want to say at this point is that this CAN BE DONE.

NOW is the time to act. All that is required is about 10-15 seconds of your time, but you can leave a comment too, if you wish (please do - it adds gravitas). I'll pretty much look after all the rest.

It is my intention to present an incontravertible case to the manufacturer, first up. I am not about to waste time trying to convince them through protracted argument. This is why I need so many appropriate comments on the petition - they won't all be read (of course) but by golly they'll make an impressive sized pdf to email - all part of the plan.

I already have a well established working relationship for tool development with the people I have in mind, and we work exceptionally well together. There are one or two other fall back positions, in the event that this manufacturer can't be convinced or isn't able to run with it for logistical reasons. I think that is a very unlikely scenario.

I should say that this is not a commercial venture for me (but I won't say no to a lifetime supply of files :mrgreen: ). I just want a result.

Cheers
Brett

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Not as sharp as your wit Brett, but as sharp as I could get them with the files currently available.

 

[TobyC]

One thing for sure, if we do nothing and say nothing, nothing will change, at least not for the better.

A savvy tool maker will see this as an opportunity to make a name for themselves, and make some friends and some money worldwide.

If we don't tell them we're unhappy they won't know that we're unhappy, customer feedback is a powerful tool, but not if you don't use it.

Toby

 

[Brit (Andy)]

Very true Toby. I won't only be buying saw files from the manufacturer who shows their worth and steps up to the challenge. Manufactuers who deliver the goods deserve customer loyalty in return.

 

[MIGNAL]

Will only take one manufacturer. . . then they will all follow suit. I heard that sort of thing happened fairly recently with the humble hand wood plane. :wink:

 

[FenceFurniture]

By now, I guess you are aware of my goal - to get proper saw files made once more. This is being done in collaboration with people who really know what they are talking about (I'm a novice).

There are two distinct, and fairly evenly split camps on the vitues of a taper amongst these 15 experts. Those who want it back (as it used to be) and those who struggle to see the benefit. It comes down to personal preference, as Nicholson reflected in their 1942 Catalogue, and I quote:

"Handsaw Blunt Files are frequently preferred to Handsaw Taper Files by carpenters and other EXPERT saw filers for sharpening handsaws with 60° teeth. They are parallel in width and thickness but their tooth construction is identical with Handsaw Taper Files. Edges set and cut to file the gullets between the saw teeth."

So, there has always been two camps. We should not forget a couple of very important points that are supremely relevant:

• 1. The were no power saws in those days, so saw filing was critically important, and was done by every professional woodworker on an almost daily basis (particularly here in Oz where they were using ultra hard timbers for housing construction during the MASSIVE housing boom after ww2)
  2. The situation is now reversed so that most pros use power saws with TC tipped teeth, and it is primarily amateur woodworkers who are doing the saw filing. Only a few of this group can class themselves as "experts".

What we can glean from that is that a parallel file is ONLY for experts, and so by default, a taper file must make things easier, or more reliable, in some way for the non-expert.

One of the collaborators is Mark Aylward (aka "Claw Hama" over here). He has been classically trained in the art of filing TWICE in two apprenticeships, and these days he is a professional woodworker. Mark is also an excellent lateral thinker (as Tradesmen tend to be). He just wants to get the job done.

His thoughts on the taper are as follows:
The taper serves several purposes as I have been told and taught over the years from my Grandfather, school teachers and reading material etc.

1. By placing the small tapered end in the gullet you can see the teeth, angles etc clearly before starting your stroke.

2. A constant even taper allows you to push through the full length of the stroke and keep even cutting pressure on the file and consequently the teeth. You don't want a shoulder at some point along the way to change or alter your nice steady flow of your cut.

3. Even if filed badly there is still a good chance you will get a (leading) cutting edge on your tooth with the small built in fleam from the angle on the file. Even a Rip saw can commonly have 4° fleam, so 5° ish with the angle of the file. This small amount of fleam on a Rip saw is to help keep your saw cut clean and not too furry. Also once you have sharpened and set your saw you should do a light run down the edges with an oil or diamond stone to get rid of any little burrs or edges that may catch in your kerf.

All this is still on the side of the tooth on a rip saw when most/all of the cutting is done on the pitch/tip of the tooth with a Rip saw (as you all know) The angle of attack on this is adjusted with your rake angle. The tip of the tooth with a 4° fleam will have a slight angle across it but if you look at a lot of the high tech circular saw blades these days they have exactly that also. Shouldn't make much difference one way or the other to your hand saw. (only my humble opinion).

In other words, as you start from the toe, by keeping constant force in the push, the file gradually begins removing metal on the way through, so the taper compensates for this ever increasing gullet width (microscopically) and so there is always constant contact and the same pressure being applied.

Of course I accept, as does Mark, that different people will have different positions on some of these finer points (e.g. fleam).

 

[FenceFurniture]

So, what is meant by a proper taper?

Here is a picture of three files. The middle one is from Claw Hama (so we don't get our Marks confused). The two either side are a Grobet "Swiss" and an F.**** and they were both delivered to me in the last week or so.

The middle file is a Wiltshire Austalia made around 1940-1950, and is Mark's favourite file by far (although he can't use it forever).

I'll have a bit more to say about the Grobet & F.****, but for the moment let's concentrate on the taper. Ok, ok, they have no taper to concentrate on, so let's move on.

I think we can accept that Claw's 1940 Wiltshire is the benchmark for taper shape. With that in mind I have measured the taper more thoroughly, dividing it into eight 10mm sections down the 80mm toothed area, and this shows that that taper is a very gentle curve, not a straight line. I did separate measurements for all three sides, and will show the averages.

Going from the shoulder down to the toe, the average angle of taper every 10mm is as follows:

0.2°
0.2°
0.3°
0.5°
0.9°
1.2°
1.7°
2.1°
and the average of the whole taper is 0.9°.

This shows that in the first third the taper is almost non-existent, starts to get going a bit in the middle third, building up to the maximum taper in the toe third. So no real surprise there, as it can be seen visually.

IMPORTANT: When I first started on this analytical journey a month ago, I couldn't for the life of me see why the taper was so important to some people. However, when I saw what Claw was on about it came to me all at once: the taper compensates for metal loss as the stroke progresses and keeps everything even and constant throughout the stroke. Bleedin' obvious when you see the real deal innit?

So yes, I am prepared to change my position in the face of supporting evidence and good argument. This is science, not stalwart opinion. I had originally planned to design a range of non-tapered files to present to the manufacturer, and they would have had a longer toothed area for each relative size, so that a good stroke length can be achieved - thus more efiicient. Not having a taper would also hhave meant that the number of different files could be significantly reduced (and that's really complex and long winded to explain)

The situation now is that a proper taper range (with proper corner radii and toothing) will be the first priority, and blunt-end, untapered files will still be on the burner, but at a lower heat.

Cheers
Brett