Paul Sellers says cap iron position doesn’t matter

[Ttrees]

As said I've tried a multitude of differing ways to get the camber the way I like it.
David's suggestion of "directed pressure" i.e putting your fingers where you want metal removed, rather than leaning, works for me the best yet.

I've seen some pine you were recently planing Jacob.
From the shavings, it does appear that you weren't using a mad camber or had aggressively honed the corners away of the cutting iron,
so you can at least see what a fine camber looks like.

You are always willing to talk about sharpening,
so I find it strange that you would not have noticed it being in anyway tricky to do, not the sharpening part, but the geometry needed to get the cap even when set.

Terrible photos I know, but an example of what my jack plane is set to
when working on slightly tougher stock, never more than
that 1/32" away from the edge with my timber and cap iron @50.
It's not often I have to hone that iron with such a slight camber,
and possibly easier to achieve compared to having a bit more camber, because it needs to be even if it's to work nice for me.
Sorry I have no other photos of cap irons to show.

I'm not saying your talking gibberish, as I've seen others appear to get nice cambers with nearly all methods.
I just wonder what I would think of the geometry if it were me in person, wanting to plane something that wasn't a narrow edge.

Tom

 

[Adam W.]

snip/
Really? Which bit didn't you get? Would a drawing help?
/snip

I was having trouble visualising 30º as 1/3 of 90º. I always thought it was 2/3 of 45º

 

[Jacob]

As said I've tried a multitude of differing ways to get the camber the way I like it.
David's suggestion of "directed pressure" i.e putting your fingers where you want metal removed, rather than leaning, works for me the best yet.

Well yes - you put more pressure where you want more metal removed (or more wood, cake, ice-cream, whatever call it "directed pressure" if it helps!)

I've seen some pine you were recently planing Jacob.
From the shavings, it does appear that you weren't using a mad camber or had aggressively honed the corners away of the cutting iron,
so you can at least see what a fine camber looks like.

Not sure what you are saying here. Yes I know what a fine camber looks like. I know what a coarse camber looks like. I never round corners of blade off

You are always willing to talk about sharpening,
so I find it strange that you would not have noticed it being in anyway tricky to do, not the sharpening part, but the geometry needed to get the cap even when set.

Oddly enough I was thinking about it only the other day. I tend to pick up the nearest plane when I'm fiddling about doing little jobs. This time it was a 5 1/2 which I hadn't used for a bit and it wouldn't cut on some quite soft pine. Flipped out the blade - saw it was very finely set (I'd forgotten been experimenting along those lines), slid the cap iron back to about 1/16" and it cut perfectly.
Couldn't quite follow what the rest of your post was saying, what was the problem exactly?
PS had another look - are you saying that a fine camber and a fine cap iron set are incompatible? This would be true of course, unless you file the cap iron to match. That way madness lies! For a very fine set and camber I'd expect only to be using the middle part of the blade, which would solve the problem of vanishing camber at the edges.

 

[Jacob]

I was having trouble visualising 30º as 1/3 of 90º. I always thought it was 2/3 of 45º

That'll do nicely. Near enough for me. Well done!

 

[Adam W.]

That'll do nicely. Near enough for me. Well done!

You're welcome, I'm glad I've cleared it up for you.

 

[thetyreman]

I honestly think a hock cap iron is one of the best investments you can make for your old planes, I've tried both and know which one I prefer, I like the thin vintage blades with modern thick hock cap irons, you can get the cap iron right up close to the edge, and it removes all chatter, and also makes it easier to plane exotics and figured woods.

 

[Ttrees]

I meant the even profile of a graduated camber Jacob.
If one can achieve that camber consistently, something quite like which I've shown in the time you say it takes, whatever that is, but it sounds a heck of a lot faster than me.
I definitely regard that as a serious achievement!
I often go back to the hone after pairing with the cap as it's not a good enough profile to plane the timber I work with.

p.s "directed pressure" is often utilized for scrapers, which I presume
you might have seen in articles before.
Spreading the fingers on as much surface area, some even using two hands to cover the entire area to be sharpened.

I haven't heard of the suggestion to try the same principal so clearly even after watching Cosman, for instance.
Maybe I'm just a bit thick, but was coming away with the suggestion this was for stability rather than your finger placement playing a part.

Tom

 

[Ttrees]

Well yes - you put more pressure where you want more metal removed (or more wood, cake, ice-cream, whatever call it "directed pressure" if it helps!)

Hope I've cleared that up with my last comment, saying what I've found useful,
If anyone's got a more fitting name derived from scrapers or some other tool, in which this method is employed, then I'm all ears?...

It makes quite different results for me to do it this way, rather than the way you're suggesting.
(Not in any way whatsoever suggesting your methods don't work for you)

Tom

 

[ivan]

I'm hopeless at hand sharpening, although I can guess 25deg pretty well if I have to grind a primary bevel. But any sharpening would get a bit convex and long winded, 'cos I'd never know if I was sharpening at the base or the pointy tip of the bevel. I think it would take me a lot more than 10 mins so I could do this sucessfully on autopilot. (I have tried)
Using a guide, a handfull of strokes at the sharpening angle on 600grit diamond turns up a burr, half a dozen more on 6000 grit waterstone polishes an edge, and a similar number of back and forths removes the burr and cleans up the flat side. If the 600 grit stage takes too long, it's time to grind some more away at the lower grinding angle.

Making a camber is fairly straightforward using the guide, with pressure applied by thumb (blade towards you) only at the 1,2,3,4,5 positions across the width of the blade. Same number of strokes at 1 & 5, half the number at 2 & 4, none at 3 if blade already sharp. Use one finger if you prefer to have the blade on the far side of the guide.

Have a look here: Camber With a Honing Guide | Popular Woodworking Magazine

 

[Jacob]

....p.s "directed pressure" is often utilized for scrapers, which I presume
you might have seen in articles before.
...

I don't read the mags. I don't think I've bought one in 30 years or more. I guess that's why I've never heard of "chatoyancy" or "directed pressure" .
I read a lot of books though.

I'm hopeless at hand sharpening, although I can guess 25deg pretty well if I have to grind a primary bevel. But any sharpening would get a bit convex and long winded, 'cos I'd never know if I was sharpening at the base or the pointy tip of the bevel.

You turn them over at intervals and look at the other side, to see how you are getting on

Have a look here: Camber With a Honing Guide | Popular Woodworking Magazine

Thanks but I think I'll pass on that one!

 

[Ttrees]

Aye, I could use the cheap guide I have, it might work better now since I've picked up a grinder since, and made the decision on what works for me with water, it would likely be a lot quicker than it was before TBH.

For those who decide to go freehand, which I choose personally as the grinder is often obstructed by some large K9's and/or the lawnmower
I can get away with tipping up another degree until the grinder is free until then.
The method is worth trying, if all else fails.

Tom

 

[Jacob]

Aye, I could use the cheap guide I have, it might work better now since I've picked up a grinder since, and made the decision on what works for me with water, it would likely be a lot quicker than it was before TBH.

For those who decide to go freehand, which I choose personally as the grinder is often obstructed by some large K9's and/or the lawnmower
I can get away with tipping up another degree until the grinder is free until then.
The method is worth trying, if all else fails.

Tom

If you have a normal double sided oil stone you just grind on the coarse side.

 

[Ttrees]

Could do, but with water everything seems to glaze.
I think I might just stick to the 3 quid diamond hones which bonded nicely to some granite bits for doing most of the work.

It's partly an individual thing that I choose water, but disregarding that
and using oil, using the technique is likely a messy affair.
Saying that it's the best way I've came across to make the camber even
if your off center a bit.

Not an issue for a plane which the cap is set away, as there is some room for error with it further away, but when it's snugged up small things get very noticeable, (for the timbers I work).

All the best
Tom

 

[Fergie 307]

I have always found that whatever you are honing, spreading your fingers out across the whole width of the piece gives a much better feel. You can then quite easily control the angle of the blade, and create whatever profile you want. It does take practice to achieve a consistent angle admittedly. I don't do this very often and find it's definitely one of those skills that goes stale through lack of practice. I have some old irons and chisels that I use as gasket scrapers . If I have to sharpen one I tend to use one of these first to have a quick practice and get my eye in again before doing the real thing. If you find that is made easier for you by using a guide, then use one.

 

[Jacob]

I have always found that whatever you are honing, spreading your fingers out across the whole width of the piece gives a much better feel. You can then quite easily control the angle of the blade, and create whatever profile you want. It does take practice to achieve a consistent angle admittedly.

They way to get it right is to keep looking at the workpiece, not your fingers. Turn it over and see how it is going. If in doubt colour it in with a felt tip so you can see where you've been

If you find that is made easier for you by using a guide, then use one.

Or bin it and try just a little harder to do it properly. It never was a problem until the modern sharpening craze kicked off - mid 80s as far as I can see

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

A bit severe!
The questions Paul has to answer come from novices - obviously, or he wouldn't get asked them. So he gives simple practical answers. People go away and find that things work. For instance his 3 stone simple freehand sharpening is spot on and dead easy. Nobody needs much more than that. In fact less will do; one oil stone if you do it a little and often enough.
In the meantime they've escaped having to work their way through the maze of hysterical half baked opinion and sheer alchemical madness which surrounds the subject, as we see in this thread!
They can always stick their nose in later, but best advised not to bother in my opinion!
https://paulsellers.com/2015/04/keep-sharpening-simple/PS it wasn't Sellers who influenced me to move away from the sharpening hysteria - I rediscovered trad sharpening on my own by chance and never looked back! I've still got a couple of honing jigs in a drawer somewhere but can honestly say I haven't used them for many years. They are useless and they make sharpening more difficult.
PPS and 1/32 to 1/8inch is fine for cap iron clearance. 1/32" a bit fine for easy stuff. Less than 1/32 and you might as well go straight to a scraper, because that's what you effectively have.

Jacob, I am happy to watch Sellers. He is a good teacher for what he has to teach - however the limitation here is that it only includes his way, and by actively excluding or, worse, disproving other methods, he misinforms his students. He has a closed mind.

Examples? There is the current video on the chipbreaker. He has no clue what to do in setting it up because he rejected it since it is different to his own method (he would not question that he may be doing something wrong since others are successful at this and he is not). He is happy taking the thinnest shavings in straight-grained softwoods.

I once "discussed" with him his criticism of a LA Jack, which he claimed tears out in Pine. I asked him what angle was the bevel. He was adamant that he set it up at 50 degrees. Well, we all know that would it would be impossible for a plane to tearout out with a 62 degree cutting angle in such wood. He rigged the demonstration.

He likes playing to his choir and will create situations which are a solution without a problem. An example (again one I wrote to him about was his difficulty in clamping down the blade on a Veritas router plane. He came up with some contraption to tighten the screw .... when all he needed to do was oil the mechanism. I showed him this, and he deleted my correspondence completely from the on-line discussion.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Adam W.]

It's the refusing to listen to anybody else's experiences or blatantly refusing to read or dismissing articles which others link to which gets me.

It's the sure sign of an insecure narcissist.

 

[Jacob]

.....

He likes playing to his choir and will create situations which are a solution without a problem........

Well nobody is perfect!
His job is to keep it simple so that people can do stuff. They have minds of their own and can go on to "higher levels" if they wish.
Conversely the sharpening craze is managed by people who want to keep things difficult for at least two reasons; 1 to produce "solutions" to these fantasy problems and to be accredited as gurus, 2 to sell gadgets as solutions to these fantasy problems, chief amongst these being the sharpening jig - which, amazingly, does exactly the opposite of what it is supposed to and makes sharpening more difficult.
Instead of binning them people take this as confirmation that sharpening really is difficult and it gives impetus to the whole craze.
Sellers has his failings - he can ramble on boringly, his design work is not too hot and I bet he's never heard of "chatoyancy "or "directed pressure"
His greatest strength is that he doesn't seem to be selling anything except himself and his teaching of methods which are basically very practical, accessible and fairly traditional.

 

[Sgian Dubh]

I don't read the mags. I don't think I've bought one in 30 years or more. I guess that's why I've never heard of "chatoyancy" or "directed pressure" .
I read a lot of books though.

Ha, ha. You must have missed, or forgotten, discussion of chatoyance in Cut & Dried at section 7.9.

As to planes and the correct setting and preparation of their cap iron, aka chip breaker, if they have one, I prefer to remain an inactive observer in this thread. For that matter, I like to be no more than an observer of all plane sharpening, setting, and their use threads. Slainte.

 

[Jacob]

It's the refusing to listen to anybody else's experiences or blatantly refusing to read or dismissing articles which others link to which gets me.

It's the sure sign of an insecure narcissist.

Or heard/read it all before!