Adam W.
A Major Clanger
It was your comment about typos that I was referring to Jacob.
Paul Sellers says cap iron position doesn’t matter
- Thread starter paulrbarnard
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EddyCurrent
Established Member
The title of this thread is very misleading because Paul Sellers did not say cap iron position does not matter.
He said, "a 1/32 of an inch to an 1/8 of an inch, anywhere in between it'll work fine"
He said, "a 1/32 of an inch to an 1/8 of an inch, anywhere in between it'll work fine"
That's not much better for advice, but I understand he trained as a joiner and not as a cabinetmaker. His demonstrations of dimensioning make my brain ache. I can think of a very small group of folks who would be able to demonstrate working entirely by hand. One of the legit guys is at Colonial Williamsburg, working by hand, neatly and quickly, but he's forced to use single iron planes because that's the rule there - the curators determined that they didn't think double irons were common enough for them to be in regular use there. George Wilson could always work entirely by hand (you can see him doing it - also at williamsburg, making a harpsichord - including the large bits - entirely by hand. All the way down to the action inside the harpsichord), but he, too, was dictated to work only with single iron planes.
That leaves not a great chance for people to observe someone working efficiently by hand and understanding what the cap iron is for and how much it can speed up hand work without spoiling it, and without having quite the need for ideal lumber. I have seen a couple of french makers working soft wood with mid planes (but the videos are 40-50 years old now), and the shaving comes out of the plane showing a good cap iron set.
Problem two with demonstrating how it works in context and using it is that people going to Paul's classes aren't really going to care if he's that good at each aspect or not - they want to believe he is, and that's enough.
At one point in a forum on the US, someone said to George that his advice conflicted with Paul's. George doesn't lack confidence, but I don't think he had any idea who Paul Sellers was. Some of George's work has been given to your queen and Margaret Thatcher as gifts, so when someone said that Paul's shop made a piece for George Bush (which is more a matter of proximity - the piece was just OK, and it appears that it was made by a group and not just paul), it didn't really rattle George.
George is flatly honest about everything, too - when I asked him why he never mentioned anything to me about using a cap iron, he said "I didn't have much of a chance. We weren't allowed to, and I wore my body out when I was young, so I take advantage of power tools when I'm working on the side as much as I can". He's retired now.
The odds are in your favor as a hand tool worker more if you teach yourself with an eye toward making certain things that seem difficult pedestrian and push to do it. You'll end up sharpening quickly and really well (I don't know any hand tool only workers who don't sharpen to a fine edge across the board), you'll end up sharpening your rip saws quite a bit (and not jointing them all the time to sharpen) and you'll end up using lighter planes and using the cap iron. It'll just happen - it's noticeably easier, and you won't be able to avoid it if you use planes for a couple of hours at a time on a regular basis.
So it doesn’t matter if it is any value at all between 1/32 and an 1/8th. As apposed to many that say much less than 1/32 or much more than ⅛...
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
He didn't say that though.
He said up to an 1/8th "it will still cut".
That's not to say a bit of adjustment won't make any difference - it may do, depending on your desired quality/depth of cut and the nature of the wood.
Below 1/32nd is for planing obsessives really, where a scraper might be a better choice. And of course it will cut above 1/8th but you may run out of adjustment, depending on the plane.
Ttrees
Iroko loco!
Might be worth trying it first before discounting this near lost knowledge.
To suggest that someone could use a scraper in tough timbers instead is daft.
To suggest that someone could use a scraper in tough timbers instead is daft.
"Obsessives" What exactly is Obsessive about having a handplane that works. Rather it seems somewhat dimwitted to have one that doesn't, You can use it some of the time, Soft wood, perfect grain, then you have to use something else, because it won't work for planning normal wood. You can use a scraper or sandpaper. It doesn't make much sense. really, why not just learn how to set your plane up and use it. Of course it will cut with the chipbreaker set back1/8" , it will in fact still cut if you take the chipbreaker and bury it in the back yard. It will just work better if you set your chipbreaker properly. And a good point is, it doesn't cost you any more to move the chipbreaker forward so that it actually functions.
I hesitate to step into this whirlpool of opinion and belief, but here goes...
Paul Sellers is aimed squarely at the zero-to-minimum skilled people. His objective is to get people working with wood.
In that context, for someone just picking up a plane, setting the damned cap somewhere 1/32 and 1/8th from the edge is fine.
Paul Sellers is aimed squarely at the zero-to-minimum skilled people. His objective is to get people working with wood.
In that context, for someone just picking up a plane, setting the damned cap somewhere 1/32 and 1/8th from the edge is fine.
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Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Exactly.
The interesting question is why the "black belts" (if that is what they deserve to call themselves
) get so excited about Sellers. Page after page! In other threads too - arguing about his dovetailing and so on.I think I know the answer to this question but I'll keep my mouth shut!
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Well I went back and edited my post to take out that rather argumentative comment, in the interests of polite discourse... We can start an another thread on why highly skilled people getting upset.
simoncmason
Member
Some really interesting information in this thread, I've had good results controlling tearout with my #4 smoother after paying close attention to the angle of the cap iron and its set which I picked up from a David Charlesworth book and Richard McGuire video - for me it has been worth spending the tiny amount of extra time this involves to set up.
I also read with interest the comments about using moulding planes with no cap iron - i.e. try to use straightgrained wood - which makes sense where possible.
However, where does this leave the moving fillister plane? I recently made a window frame and casement and was able to cut the first few rebates easily and quickly with my 1960's Record #78, but then I ran into an area with a swirling grain around a small knot and no matter how sharp my edge or how light my set I still got a small amount of tear. (30 year old, dry ~10% humidity white oak)
I resorted to my electrical router which I don't mind, but as I have 12 windows and 3 doors to make over the next few months I'd be very interested to know if there is a good way of controlling tearout with a moving fillister, for example do skew bladed fillisters work better (I would imagine they'd actually be worse for tearout), or should a steeper or shallower edge angle be adopted - I'm hollow grinding at ~25, going to a fine diamond at 30 and stropping with green compound on MDF at just above that which gives good results for most things - but always interested to hear what has worked well for others.
I also read with interest the comments about using moulding planes with no cap iron - i.e. try to use straightgrained wood - which makes sense where possible.
However, where does this leave the moving fillister plane? I recently made a window frame and casement and was able to cut the first few rebates easily and quickly with my 1960's Record #78, but then I ran into an area with a swirling grain around a small knot and no matter how sharp my edge or how light my set I still got a small amount of tear. (30 year old, dry ~10% humidity white oak)
I resorted to my electrical router which I don't mind, but as I have 12 windows and 3 doors to make over the next few months I'd be very interested to know if there is a good way of controlling tearout with a moving fillister, for example do skew bladed fillisters work better (I would imagine they'd actually be worse for tearout), or should a steeper or shallower edge angle be adopted - I'm hollow grinding at ~25, going to a fine diamond at 30 and stropping with green compound on MDF at just above that which gives good results for most things - but always interested to hear what has worked well for others.
@simoncmason, sounds like a subject for a new thread!!
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Doing rebates by hand I'd be inclined to start a rebate with the 78 as it scores the line according to the fence, but then to carry on with a skew rebate plane once the rebate is well started. They were very heavily used which is why there are so many of them still about. Also a pleasure to use. Moving fillister is a bit over fussy for production work.
The narrow and thin blade of a rebate pane doesn't really need a 25º grind - just go straight for 30º - slightly convex bevel is normal. Best to leave as much metal in place for stiffness as they easily snatch - if worked really hard you can hear a zip noise as they chatter and leave little marks. First time I saw the zip marks on old work I thought it was some sort of machine roller impression, later realised it was hard worked rebate plane chattering.
PS knot prob - use the 78, try freshly sharpened blade, finer set, candle wax sole of plane. Try zero depth of cut and bring it up very gently to take thin shavings.
PPS Always mark up first (though the 78 does it's own marking) - then whichever plane you use - once the rebate is started it's much easier to proceed without the fence or the nicker. If it wanders off the mark just clean up with the plane on its side instead. The skew of a skew rebate tends to keep it up to the mark.
The narrow and thin blade of a rebate pane doesn't really need a 25º grind - just go straight for 30º - slightly convex bevel is normal. Best to leave as much metal in place for stiffness as they easily snatch - if worked really hard you can hear a zip noise as they chatter and leave little marks. First time I saw the zip marks on old work I thought it was some sort of machine roller impression, later realised it was hard worked rebate plane chattering.
PS knot prob - use the 78, try freshly sharpened blade, finer set, candle wax sole of plane. Try zero depth of cut and bring it up very gently to take thin shavings.
PPS Always mark up first (though the 78 does it's own marking) - then whichever plane you use - once the rebate is started it's much easier to proceed without the fence or the nicker. If it wanders off the mark just clean up with the plane on its side instead. The skew of a skew rebate tends to keep it up to the mark.
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simoncmason
Member
All makes sense - I'll try adjusting the grind for the #78 and my #10 and setting an even finer depth next time I come up against swirling grain in a rebate I'm cutting with the 78. Maybe steepen the final angle on my edge as well. 25 grind is due to the fact I have my bench grinder set up at this point and it seems to work well as a starting point for most edges I want, so it only gets altered for really low angles for a couple of chisels I have set up at 20 ish for end grain pairing only in soft stuff.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
Get a straight set wooden rebate plane and go both ways over the spot. If it's a rebate for glazing, I'm not fussed about a bit of tearout, as it gets filled by glass and putty.
Seeings as I am friendly with the conservation department at the council, I get away with single glazing and use old crown and cylinder glass, so it's putty and paint for me.
Seeings as I am friendly with the conservation department at the council, I get away with single glazing and use old crown and cylinder glass, so it's putty and paint for me.
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Another PS when I said doesn't really need a 25º grind - just go straight for 30º I meant doesn't need grind at all, on a power grinder at least. Blades too thin and get damaged IMHO
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
Actually straight rebate woodies are scarce - they are nearly all skew and right handed.
Adam W.
A Major Clanger
True, but they do come up on ebay now and then.
A fine set skew will work too, but it's not as good and you have to keep a bit of sideways pressure on it and only good for cleanup.
Addendum.
After 5 minutes of looking, here's one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174705513095?hash=item28ad429287:g:xxgAAOSwlPRgXKqI
Plane the base flat and off you go.
And another....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402809297176?hash=item5dc94e1918:g:bdAAAOSw1rJgJn63
And another...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384106708893?hash=item596e8b3f9d:g:JFMAAOSw0xdgfxpr
Shall I stop?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124626228013?hash=item1d044d532d:g:DLcAAOSwlq1gSiKr
A fine set skew will work too, but it's not as good and you have to keep a bit of sideways pressure on it and only good for cleanup.
Addendum.
After 5 minutes of looking, here's one.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174705513095?hash=item28ad429287:g:xxgAAOSwlPRgXKqI
Plane the base flat and off you go.
And another....
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402809297176?hash=item5dc94e1918:g:bdAAAOSw1rJgJn63
And another...
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/384106708893?hash=item596e8b3f9d:g:JFMAAOSw0xdgfxpr
Shall I stop?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/124626228013?hash=item1d044d532d:g:DLcAAOSwlq1gSiKr
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Ttrees
Iroko loco!
What's so difficult about trying something so basic and easy, if you don't think honing a camber like I shown the hard part?
That's where I'm confused.
The fact is that everyone and their dog has made a stack of videos about most aspects of basic planing.
Why muddy the waters by making a video especially about the cap iron and then discount it?
Must be strange to make a video or talk about it, whilst knowing it works like a silver bullet, yet pretend it doesn't work well at all.
I suppose that would be forgivable if it was the 1990's,
But its 2021 and you've seen David's videos.
Not that Sellers is the only guru who discounts the tool
Cosman does be at that also.
It seems those two and a few others think they have something to lose from showing how to use the cap iron.
Bizarre clandestine advice to keep folks awaiting expecting the second part to a certain video, or others selling some sort of kit to try an get the best edge for those tough examples, when any sharp edge would be grand instead, regardless what method/abrasive one uses for honing.
When will these folks realize that this is their cash cow, and it's been hiding under curly shavings because it's not being used.
Would love to see Cosman give it a bash, because he actually is honest regarding the work, like he did with say the Chris Pye carving video, but he's got like 10 kids to feed, so suppose it might be risky if he stands to loose money on unnecessary sharpening stones.
I'm sure there lovely, but outta my price range.
What does it matter I suppose, anyone can demonstrate skills to be learned...
Suppose I just want to see some other folks take on honing an iron nicely for the cap to work in various fine cambers.
Tom
That's where I'm confused.
The fact is that everyone and their dog has made a stack of videos about most aspects of basic planing.
Why muddy the waters by making a video especially about the cap iron and then discount it?
Must be strange to make a video or talk about it, whilst knowing it works like a silver bullet, yet pretend it doesn't work well at all.
I suppose that would be forgivable if it was the 1990's,
But its 2021 and you've seen David's videos.
Not that Sellers is the only guru who discounts the tool
Cosman does be at that also.
It seems those two and a few others think they have something to lose from showing how to use the cap iron.
Bizarre clandestine advice to keep folks awaiting expecting the second part to a certain video, or others selling some sort of kit to try an get the best edge for those tough examples, when any sharp edge would be grand instead, regardless what method/abrasive one uses for honing.
When will these folks realize that this is their cash cow, and it's been hiding under curly shavings because it's not being used.
Would love to see Cosman give it a bash, because he actually is honest regarding the work, like he did with say the Chris Pye carving video, but he's got like 10 kids to feed, so suppose it might be risky if he stands to loose money on unnecessary sharpening stones.
I'm sure there lovely, but outta my price range.
What does it matter I suppose, anyone can demonstrate skills to be learned...
Suppose I just want to see some other folks take on honing an iron nicely for the cap to work in various fine cambers.
Tom
Jacob
What goes around comes around.
No carry on if it keeps you happy!
They are less common than skew in my experience but I'm not going to start counting them!
