Paul Sellers and Old v New Tools

[D_W]

As an amateur sawdust maker I've picked up a few useful tips from Sellers, and certainly my hand-cut dovetails (which I rarely get to cut) have improved since watching a few of his vids. But I too don't get the sycophantic comments about him being some sort of god or genius. I take the good bits and (try to) ignore the stuff that gets up my pipe - like whether to lie your plane on the sole or the side. And no, I'm not seeking to start that hare running again!

I've kind of wondered in the long term how well each woodworker would do if they saw what they were supposed to do and then spent no more time watching a particular joint (so, you get one good video of dovetails and then thereafter force yourself to identify one aesthetic problem each time you cut a joint or set of joints and solve it).

I'm thinking that the average person solving their issues with dovetail joints will be further ahead if they solve them than if they continue to look for more tips. We all need more instruction on design and standards than we do on how to hold a saw.

I don't know if this is coming across clearly as i'm in my "mid-afternoon slows" after doing technical work since 7am (it's 2PM here), but it occurs to me that what got me good at joints (good enough that I can make them to any reasonable standard) was solving problems with making them. And I'd bet a lot of people credit a given teacher for showing them how to do something that they would've learned to do on their own.

One of the hardest pills for a beginner (who is already often good at a profession and has to learn what it's like to suck at something for a while again) to swallow is what they're missing is desire and repetition in combination. The desire is usually to get a good result (or have someone promise it) without putting in the repetition. There's usually a bridge out somewhere on that road.

 

[Daniel2]

I always put mine down pointing towards Wrexham.

I thought that planes should always point to Sheffield.

 

[Rorschach]

I thought that planes should always point to Sheffield.

I like mine to point towards the runway.

 

[AJB Temple]

Personally I think Rob Cosman has an excellent web site resource for people wishing to learn. Less knowledgeable about Paul Sellers, but he seems OK to me. Everyone has preferences, and intelligent viewers of their channels are unlikely to mistake their opinions for indisputable facts.

Not sure what the purpose is of rubbishing other people's website content on this forum. No one forces us to watch / attend courses / follow their methods. As adults we choose and use tools however we want.

 

[JobandKnock]

I always put mine down pointing towards Wrexham.

Do you have an arrow painted on the workshop floor like the Welsh Tal-y-ban?

 

[Jacob]

Weird.
If you don't like the man, don't watch him.
I can't stand Rob Cosman. So I don't watch him.

It's the way he says "Hi I'm Rob Cosman and welcome to my shaaap"

 

[John Brown]

Personally I think Rob Cosman has an excellent web site resource for people wishing to learn. Less knowledgeable about Paul Sellers, but he seems OK to me. Everyone has preferences, and intelligent viewers of their channels are unlikely to mistake their opinions for indisputable facts.

Not sure what the purpose is of rubbishing other people's website content on this forum. No one forces us to watch / attend courses / follow their methods. As adults we choose and use tools however we want.

I'm not rubbishing his(Rob Conman's) content, I just find him irritating.

 

[John Brown]

I'm not rubbishing his(Rob Conman's) content, I just find him irritating.

Sometimes autocomplete/predictive text is spot on.
I think I'm going to take a laissez-faire attitude to such things from now on...

 

[JSW]

It's the way he says "Hi I'm Rob Cosman and welcome to my shaaap"

Followed closely by stumpynubs and his infernal "Wait! Don't go yet!!"

Sellers I can't stand, I know it's just his way and all that, but I find him to be really condescending and quite arrogant.

I do like Cosman though, found him really annoying to begin with, but then slowly warmed to him. his heart appears to be in the right place also with his Purple Heart Project. His live feeds are interesting for the interaction of the team supporting him, camera crew, helpers etc, who all seem to be rather good at keeping him in check, no rampant ego let loose, he's kept under control in a nicely discreet way.

 

[mikej460]

if I do a figure of 8 (well just a spiral squiggle up and down) it tends to push the oil and swarf off the sides of the stone. It also pushes off those annoying bits of wire edge or sawdust which float about up and down the stone and are difficult to shift. Should have noticed this 50 years ago!

I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig

 

[D_W]

Followed closely by stumpynubs and his infernal "Wait! Don't go yet!!"

I actually kind of like cosman. I don't have much of anything to learn from him, but I've let loose in comments on some of his claims a couple of times and each time I've been kind of brisk, he's responded with courtesy. He wouldn't have to. I'd be glad to meet him in person - and while he does promote his business, there's something a little more genuine to him than there is to paul. I could be wrong - we all could, and pretty much all the time.

But I wouldn't rate stumpy as worthy of cleaning paul or rob's underwear, let alone in a class with them. Ultimately, at least paul and rob do actually teach woodworking rather than constantly farming off of people by trying to send them through amazon links.

 

[D_W]

I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig

I see a marketing opportunity. a honing jig with a giant 52100 bearing.

( I generally use slow and heavy or short strokes when honing something and needing to remove material -fast long strokes up and down a stone often lead to swarf buildup and tool skating. A whole gaggle of stones also likes the move of short strokes or short circles where you keep the lubricant ahead of or behind the circles or short strokes so that it's not constantly cushioning the tools, but it's available if you need to pull some into the stroke pattern....

If one compares things while working as opposed to just repeating a task, it's often possible to find things like this to manipulate - there's a poster on the US forum who has an interesting term for this kind of stuff - craftsman's subtlety, but it's a blank term that covers all of the little bits and bobs that a craftsman will learn by feel and that aren't easy to communicate.

His example is wonderful - imagine describing how you walk with two legs and feet if you were talking to someone who had never used either before. Describing the bend of the foot, the toes, upper body, etc. Then consider how we describe it - putting one foot in front of the other. It's not necessary to do things like this (the minutiae) with sharpening, but sometimes it's more stimulating to experiment because it gets you to the next interesting thing.

 

[JobandKnock]

I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig

Yes, but I agree with Jacob that a honing jig often isn't necessary and with a honing jig, whilst good on chisels is often less good on plane irons (where you really don't want sharp corners most of the time) and many jigs can't deal with cambered blades, either.

 

[DrDarren]

"What is best" surely is "in my judgement / experience", no matter who says it?

I’m an amateur wood wrangler and professional wordsmith (educational philosophy). You can decide on ‘best’ if you can decide on your criteria for best. For example your best pilot might be someone who can fly and navigate a plane full of passengers from a to b in a smooth, fuel-efficient and safe manner without alienating their staff by being a knob. Four criteria there. You may need less or more criteria to refine but you can more or less agree that pilot Jess is better than pilot Pat because she used less fuel on average than Pat. Often though, and especially where aesthetics meets technique or where we cannot define our terms or agree on standards of evidence e.g. what do we mean by ‘god’then we cannot agree criteria and therefore cannot arrive at a reasonably object judgement. If you look back at the thread there are competing criteria. Knowing whether we are discussing the criteria by which we judge or a judgement itself (often with unspoken criteria) can be helpful. I started off liking Paul Sellars as he helped me understand principles of accurate joint construction e.g. knife walls. I visit him rarely now because his text is poorly constructed and rambling and his spiritual musings are not relevant nor critically referenced to be meaningful to me.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig

In The Village Carpenter it is mentioned that the stone should be narrower than the blade. If you then skew the blade slightly to get as much of it on the stone as possible this would achieve the same thing, pushing swarf and dirt off the sides. It also keeps the stone flat from side to side - end to end doesn't matter too much.

 

[Jacob]

I was taught the figure of 8 at night school over 15 years ago. Bit tricky if you use a honing jig

Another good reason for not using a honing jig.

In The Village Carpenter it is mentioned that the stone should be narrower than the blade. If you then skew the blade slightly to get as much of on the stone as possible this would achieve the same thing, pushing swarf and dirt off the sides. It also keeps the stone flat from side to side - end to end doesn't matter too much.

Well yes exactly. I've been doing the fig of 8 for years but the way it helps clean the stone I only recently twigged, as an irritating but of sawdust, wire edge whatever it was, suddenly disappeared off the edge.
n. b. "8" has nothing to do with it and can cause confusion if you over-think it - basically you just move the tool round and round and up and down the stone as you would if wax polishing a table top. More spiral than anything, but easy and obvious.

 

[ecokestove]

One thing about buying new is that you are helping to give someone a job.

I find Paul's free videos useful, but his blog is often an impenetrable ramble.

 

[Daniel2]

In The Village Carpenter it is mentioned that the stone should be narrower than the blade. If you then skew the blade slightly to get as much of on the stone as possible this would achieve the same thing, pushing swarf and dirt off the sides. It also keeps the stone flat from side to side - end to end doesn't matter too much.

I'm actually reading The Village Carpenter at the moment.
It's a wonderful book.

 

[Jacob]

One thing about buying new is that you are helping to give someone a job.

Buying old and help save the planet! Recycling is the future and keep another set of people in jobs, servicing, sharpening, repairing, buying/selling etc

I find Paul's free videos useful, but his blog is often an impenetrable ramble.

I don't often read him at length but checked out his blog here How does your workshop grow - Paul Sellers' Blog a bit long but OK I thought, thoughtful about the subject he likes, opinionated but not overly self important. He doesn't overdo the "correct" way but just rambles on harmlessly and emphasises that it's his "personal' view.
He's a bit special really!

 

[Gary_S]

It amazes me that there are people posting here about other people who make content and shock and horror make money from doing so who appear to have some experience in working with wood and forget that woodwork is not a science. Often, right and wrong is subjective. What suits one person in the way they hone, sharpen or saw, may not suit another. Either way, the wood does't care, the joint will fit well enough most of the time. Imprecision and minor imperfections and all.

When PS, RC et al expound on a subject, they are giving an opinion. Many on here have said as much. Why act like a bunch of armchair contract lawyers and look for phrases that seem to make someone look bad, appear arrogant, a bit of a know it all. You know they don't know it all but you also know that they are doing something positive, not sitting harping on fora.