Paul, his version of sharpening

[baldkev]

Hmmmmm....

I dont know quite why you posted that, but i agree..... probably

why are there so many scantily clad ladies when I search for 'UK workshop shed'
give me a clue pls adam

Have you got a link?

Edit to add: how many times has this thread had 'paul sellers' or 'sellers' in it? This is advertising, maybe he should sponser ukw

 

[Keith Cocker]

btw where was he apprenticed....the 18th century. he's from Stockport where I believe they had electricity in the 1980s.

Some parts of Stockport are dark indeed!!!

 

[tibi]

Appreciate the links. He may very well have the most odious personality of any professional woodworker around, but he has done important work, for important clients, and that's the only point I was attempting to make.

As an aside, a lot of people aren't aware that Thomas Moser, along with Chris Becksvoort, produced several New England highboys early in the history of Moser's business (a U.S. firm). Pretty flawless reproductions at that. Now, they're typically tossed off as "Shaker guys" with accompanying disdain that this sort of work (the highboys) is well outside their skillset. They ended up specializing in what the market wanted, a price points it was willng to pay, and produced in a way to make money. Moser retired a multimillionaire. His son runs the business now.

I appreciate his contributions to the revival of handtool woodworking, as he is one of the most well known hand tool teachers of woodworking in the world. I appreciate his knowledge of the woodworking, because many of the advice is great and is also suitable for people, who start small and cannot buy the modern and expensive tools (or they don't want to). I also like that he provides a lot of free content on youtube.

Another famous hand tool woodworker Tom Fidgen completely stopped posting free videos on youtube and all his content is behind the paywall. It is strange, because he has then nothing new to tease prospective buyers into his online classes.

Back to Paul, I just do not like the way he puts himself on the pedestal. He said explicitly a few times that he is not reading WW magazines and is not following any other woodworkers. Implicitly, many other people seen it too, that he considers his methods superior to anything else without a doubt. And he does not tolerate any other opinion or tries any new methods.

When I see a man in his early 70s, I automatically assume that he had gone through a lot in his life and the life lessons (which are sometimes hard and unexpected) teach you a little bit of humility (even if your life work and legacy belongs to the best of the best). I am half his age, but this is something that strikes me. It is like seeing a very beautiful woman, where you give her a lot of good attributes and personality just because of the halo effect. And then she tears off one good attribute after another, leaving you with just her physical beauty and nothing else.

I think that humility should go hand in hand with age. I know that it is not always the case, but the overall picture is then just more pleasant. It is more pleasant to look at a woman, where you know that there is more to her than just her looks. It is more pleasant to look at a woodworker, when you know there is more to him, than just his skills.

 

[Jacob]

.... He said explicitly a few times that he is not reading WW magazines and is not following any other woodworkers.....

Well I sympathise with him there! I gave up reading WW mags about 45 years ago - basically because they've completely rewritten how to do woodwork and even expunged various things from the record - two big examples being sharpening and benches. It's a massive commercial operation and nothing like the "Woodworker" of old.
Can't say I follow any particular woodworkers either. Quite interested in the vernacular and traditional, but no names associated, except perhaps Claudia Kinmonth (writer), John Brown (Welsh Stick Furniture), the Shakers, etc. Ernest Joyce, Ellis etc

 

[hlvd]

Appreciate the links. He may very well have the most odious personality of any professional woodworker around, but he has done important work, for important clients, and that's the only point I was attempting to make.

As an aside, a lot of people aren't aware that Thomas Moser, along with Chris Becksvoort, produced several New England highboys early in the history of Moser's business (a U.S. firm). Pretty flawless reproductions at that. Now, they're typically tossed off as "Shaker guys" with accompanying disdain that this sort of work (the highboys) is well outside their skillset. They ended up specializing in what the market wanted, a price points it was willng to pay, and produced in a way to make money. Moser retired a multimillionaire. His son runs the business now.

This type of talk isn’t welcome on a woodworking forum, if I wanted to read about someone’s ‘Odious Personality’ I’d take a dive down into the dregs of Twitter!

 

[Rhossydd]

From the article;
"The assumption that this was progress was based on the misconception that no one today could cut that dovetail accurately and quickly by hand. That’s when I stepped in. I’d always taught from a lived life working with hand tools; fifty years in the saddle gives you a balanced perspective "

This where his perspective is wrong. It's the view of someone who has spent 50 years doing the same thing over and over again until he's good at it.
Hobbyists don't have the luxury of years to learn how to do things by hand or be able to afford the waste when mistakes are made.
There are also people who like to make things from wood, and can with modern methods, that simply haven't the hand to eye coordination to master building by hand.

 

[John Brown]

Well I sympathise with him there! I gave up reading WW mags about 45 years ago - basically because they've completely rewritten how to do woodwork and even expunged various things from the record - two big examples being sharpening and benches. It's a massive commercial operation and nothing like the "Woodworker" of old.
Can't say I follow any particular woodworkers either. Quite interested in the vernacular and traditional, but no names associated, except perhaps Claudia Kinmonth (writer), John Brown (Welsh Stick Furniture), the Shakers, etc. Ernest Joyce, Ellis etc

Somebody else called John Brown? Well, I do declare!

 

[Adam W.]

From the article;
"The assumption that this was progress was based on the misconception that no one today could cut that dovetail accurately and quickly by hand. That’s when I stepped in. I’d always taught from a lived life working with hand tools; fifty years in the saddle gives you a balanced perspective "

This where his perspective is wrong. It's the view of someone who has spent 50 years doing the same thing over and over again until he's good at it.
Hobbyists don't have the luxury of years to learn how to do things by hand or be able to afford the waste when mistakes are made.
There are also people who like to make things from wood, and can with modern methods, that simply haven't the hand to eye coordination to master building by hand.

It doesn't take very long to learn to saw to a line and I'm not sure who was making the assumption that "no one today could cut a dovetail accurately and quickly by hand". Maybe it was all just in the mind of Mr Sellers.

 

[Jacob]

From the article;
"The assumption that this was progress was based on the misconception that no one today could cut that dovetail accurately and quickly by hand. That’s when I stepped in. I’d always taught from a lived life working with hand tools; fifty years in the saddle gives you a balanced perspective "

This where his perspective is wrong. It's the view of someone who has spent 50 years doing the same thing over and over again until he's good at it.

Slight exaggeration here! Doesn't take long to get it by hand it's not rocket science. In fact quicker and easier to learn how to, compared to the gadget oriented alternatives on offer

Hobbyists don't have the luxury of years to learn how to do things by hand or be able to afford the waste when mistakes are made.
There are also people who like to make things from wood, and can with modern methods, that simply haven't the hand to eye coordination to master building by hand.

That's what the mags and the gadget salemen will tell you - over and over again!

 

[Droogs]

Guys before this does descends try keep things civil. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to express them civilly. There are many ways to do anything in woodworking especially in sharpening. Some will find the personalities a very Marmite proposition in the way they promote or present their thing. They are allowed to say so just as others can disagree.

Besides all of you know my method of dragging the chisel/iron along a path, starting with gravel and working up to marble patios in the rain is the one true way.

 

[C.R. Miller]

He does seem to have an overwhelming influence on certain second-hand tool prices, which I'm not a fan of. Still, if it wasn't him then it would've eventually been someone else.

 

[Jacob]

....There are many ways ............especially in sharpening.

There are now , but the old way is quicker, easier and cheaper.

 

[Rhossydd]

In fact quicker and easier to learn how to, compared to the gadget oriented alternatives on offer

It really isn't.
When I first wanted to put a decorative profile on a timber edge, an electric router delivered a great result after ten minutes of practice. I've repeatedly tried using moulding planes and never got such a good and fast result.
Similarly, a planer thicknesser will deliver accurate sized, squared timber with very little practice, effort or waste.

 

[Jacob]

It really isn't.
When I first wanted to put a decorative profile on a timber edge, an electric router delivered a great result after ten minutes of practice. I've repeatedly tried using moulding planes and never got such a good and fast result.
Similarly, a planer thicknesser will deliver accurate sized, squared timber with very little practice, effort or waste.

I was talking about sharpening.
Obviously most machine processes are faster but modern sharpening is still mostly hand work and is slow.
And dovetailing - it's not difficult and is a pity that people are so easily talked out of it.
Good to see Sellers and others still talking up hand skills.

 

[Rhossydd]

And dovetailing - it's not difficult

I was taught to hand cut dovetails at school, and yes it IS really difficult. One small error can spoil a whole project, get a router+jig set up and it's pretty straight forward.

 

[Jacob]

I was taught to hand cut dovetails at school, and yes it IS really difficult. One small error can spoil a whole project, get a router+jig set up and it's pretty straight forward.

I guess if you had instead been offered a router and a jig at school you would have found that difficult too, and even if not would end up with really boring machine cut dovetails!
All these things are difficult at first, even sharpening a pencil.

 

[Blackswanwood]

This really is a bizarre thread.

As I see it Paul Sellers puts some stuff on YouTube that I can choose to watch for free. If I like it and don't find his style of putting it across off-putting I can choose to shell out a few shillings and see some more of him and his stuff. On the other hand if I don't like what he espouses, how he puts it across or suspect he mistreats his daffodils (isn't that what a narcissist does?) I don't ever need hear from him again

He's open about how he makes his money and doesn't leave room for misunderstanding on his views and style of woodworking, As far as I can see he isn't doing anything dishonest or illegal.

He's actually "not my cup of tea" but that doesn't leave me feeling the need to denigrate his approach to woodworking or life in general. Perhaps I'm missing something and there's something uplifting in rubbishing a bloke that I only come across if I seek him out?

 

[Recky33]

One small error can spoil a whole project, get a router+jig set up and it's pretty straight forward.

So is cnc or getting someone else to do it for you but it's a bit self defeating isn't it ? most people can drive to Tesco without a problem, put them in a rally car and a tiny bit of practice is needed, why is that you ask, well mainly because you cant buy an easy get out of jail free card

 

[hlvd]

I was taught to hand cut dovetails at school, and yes it IS really difficult. One small error can spoil a whole project, get a router+jig set up and it's pretty straight forward.

I disagree, I’ve seen some awful machine cut dovetails on various forums.

 

[Rhossydd]

I guess if you had instead been offered a router and a jig at school you would have found that difficult too,

No, you're missing the point. Hand skills need practice, often lots of it, and some people really just won't be capable of the needed degree of dexterity. Setting up a machine is simple process that just needs knowledge and understanding.