Patent versus Copyright

[D_W]

You've obviously not used a T8

I had tons of them before LEDs.

 

[Robbo60]

What gets me is when huge organisations threaten a one man band for using a similar name e.g. MacDonalds. My late Brother in Law worked for Orange mountain bikes and they real battle with Orange phone company. I think they did a deal in the end where Orange phones helped finance the bike's marketing, but had veto over it.

 

[Phil Russell]

Patents are a nightmare and at the same time a lifeline to R&D. Maybe 20 years ago it would cost about £190m to research and develop an idea in my profession to the point of putting it on the market ... and that is before you have built a plant to make it and sold any. Quite an investment; and one that needs a way of getting it back and making a profit to keep the R&D process moving and the shareholders happy. An effective patent can do this. I can recall a few times when we got a long way into the R&D process only to then have a competitor publish a patent which effectively meant we had spent many millions of pounds for nothing: the product was not ours any more. So secrecy was paramount.
Cheers, Phil

 

[baldkev]

I looked into patents a few years back for a few of my ideas / inventions. I started the process, had patent searches done, met a chartered patent agent and got a lot of useful info. It seems to me that patents arent necessarily much protection. Firstly the huge legal costs of challenging an infringement, for which mostly the offender can simply say ' sorry gov, didnt realise, I'll stop ' and due to the costs involved, it hardly ever gets further than an apology, you are unlikely to cover your costs. Secondly by changing small details offenders can often get round the patent.

The best patents apparently capture the vision of what the product will achieve, not just the specific design, so if its a new idea, the best patent would make it hard to copy. Interpretation is important.

Then theres the patent cost. It may cost 5k to get a patent, then you have one year in which to pay for worldwide cover or individual costs for other countries, which is expensive.... unless you have money, its very hard to achieve. And most of us dont have the money......

 

[Mark Hancock]

I had tons of them before LEDs.

I'm not sure if that was intended as a tongue in cheek reply so just to clarify I was referring to the latest Tormek machine, the T8, not fluorescent lights?

 

[Droogs]

I think we need engineers though just as much as we need creative people, there should be no hierarchy of subjects.

I beg to differ, I think the "Anti Stellar Implosion Resonating Field Generator" is a lot more important than "Ode to a Dying Star"

 

[D_W]

I'm not sure if that was intended as a tongue in cheek reply so just to clarify I was referring to the latest Tormek machine, the T8, not fluorescent lights?

Yes, I was just kidding. I had the supergrind 2000, bought extra rests, had three different wheels and the improved jigs and got the stainless arbor kit. It was just way too slow. It's very safe but slow. I use grinders or a high speed ceramic belt now. The high speed ceramic belt system was actually less than the tormek but you can grind a kitchen knife from bar stock if you want or cut a bevel on a hardened chisel without burning it.

 

[Bob Chapman]

Well, yes and no. If I take music for example, there are only a very limited number of notes and add to that the limitations that there are only certain combinations of notes that actually can be used in combination. If we take all the music that has ever been created, it’s almost guaranteed that every ‘acceptable’ combination of notes has already been played and created by someone. There is Nothing therefore really innovative about putting a sequence of notes together that we feel is pleasing. In fact it’s something that is actually really easy to program, there are rules about what is pleasing and what combinations work. It wouldn’t take much effort to create a program to write every acceptable combination of notes and simply copyright it effectively ending the music industry for the next say 120 years.

Isn't that a bit like saying that because there are only 26 letters in the alphabet it should be easy to get a computer to write every conceivable combination and hence copyright every possible future book? Somehow, I rather think not.

 

[Cooper]

what about furniture design? I've been wondering for a while now how you'd go about somebody stopping somebody else from copying your own ideas, I'd imagine you'd have to pay a fee or something and register it? just curious, when you sell a piece and its somebody else's design or idea what are your rights with that?

I understand that copyright of a piece furniture design is much the same as for a piece of music or a painting. You need to have a dated drawing or photograph and its a good idea that it is witnested. The question is what is the aspect of the design you are claiming to have created. I remember when I was in Art school doing furniture design 50 years ago one of my tutors was designing a range of chairs he said he wanted to form part of his pension! He said it was important that the proportions that made the design individual and special was detailed in his drawings and photographs, that were the evidence of his design. The fashion industry is plagued by copycat productions and there the cost of a legal challenge often discourages pursuing a claim. When I worked in the toy industry copyright was very important as we were expected to copy other companies successful products but make them bigger, better, cheaper and "different". My boss asked the factory owner if he could have a share of the profits from our most successful toy, I think a garage. The owner agreed as long as he accepted a share of the losses of any of his designs that flopped. I think the conversation ended with that things would remain the way they were and the Christmas bonus include any special reward.

 

[sylvandale]

Hi. I am a patent attorney by trade. This has been an interesting thread and I can clarify a couple of things.

The "Design Patents" with a term of 14 years, which have been mentioned a couple of times, are purely an American thing. The equivalent in the UK & EU and lots of other places are called Registered Designs, and here they can last for up to 25 years.

Very generally, the modern international protection scheme is:
Patents: for technical innovation. Complicated and expensive but potentially very powerful. Last for 20 years
Registered Designs: for the appearance of a product. Not complicated and (relatively) cheap. Last for 25 years.
Copyright: for lots of other stuff, typically music, books etc. Limited relevance to most industrial products, usually. No registration is necessary, although you need to be able to prove original creation to enforce. Lasts for the life of the creator plus 70 years.

All three work independently and protect different things, or different aspects of the same thing.

In some countries, there is now a further one called unregistered design, which is basically a copyright-type right which does apply to the appearance of commercial products. It offers some limited protection against copying and has a very limited life (3-10 years).

I saw an organisation called Anti-Copying in Design mentioned earlier. I'm sure this trade organisation offers many useful member benefits, but I would just stress that recording your designs in its 'IP databank' is not a substitute for appropriate registered protection (Patent or Registered Design). To be fair, they don't claim it is. Their Databank is merely one way of recording what you created and when, should that ever need to be proven to enforce any unregistered rights (copyright and unregistered design) that might exist in a design. There are many other ways to do the same.

 

[akirk]

Patents do have the potential issue of showing the competition how to get around the patent, however they do have advantages - one of the biggest is funding. My first business was R&D in equestrian safety and we held a global patent for protection against 360deg crushing of the torso (very generic) - that patent was enough to drive 6 figure sums of government loans and private equity funding - without the patent we would have not had a business, nor the funds to develop or grow the business... we were fortunate enough (and had good patent agents) to have a very generic patent which helped, but they absolutely do have a commercial value...

 

[Keith 66]

what about furniture design? I've been wondering for a while now how you'd go about somebody stopping somebody else from copying your own ideas, I'd imagine you'd have to pay a fee or something and register it? just curious, when you sell a piece and its somebody elses design or idea what are your rights with that?

I worked in the boat trade for most of my life, ever since boats started being built with fibreglass the issue of copying has been an issue within the industry, this is because someone can take an existing boat & take a mould from it then go into production themselves without so much as a by your leave. The practice is known as "Splashing a mould".
It happened to me & some years later happened to someone else i knew.
In my case i had built a modified boat with no plans & therefore had no recourse nor the means to fight it anyway.
In the last case the designer claimed design & building rights & issued a cease & desist order which stopped the copier in his tracks. The difference was he was rich enough to take the risk of losing. In the end it will turn into a pissing contest between lawyers & who can afford the best usually wins.
The other option is to send the boys round & put a stop to it the hard way.