Panel glue-up

[Steve Maskery]

There are several things I could criticise about this video. The TS has no guard (though it does have a properly-set RK), he rips with a long fence and he uses way too much glue for my liking.

But.

The process he describes is absolutely spot on and well worth learning. Excellent.

http://www.finewoodworking.com/2017/01/ ... ring-joint

 

[custard]

I wouldn't quite go as far as that Steve, his process works fine, but it just one of several variations that also work fine.

Personally for boards that thick (and certainly for boards any thicker) I'd plane the edges individually and then check they're absolutely square. Plus it seems he's relying on his machine planer to provide an initial surface, so he's doing little more than removing machine marks and adding a spring. In fact he says at one point that if things aren't working out then take the boards back to the planer/thicknesser and then start again with the hand plane.

Nothing wrong with that in a commercial workshop, but I'd expect a woodworking school to train their pupils so they're confident they can do the entire job from rough sawn to finished top with hand tools only. The reason I'd argue that's important is this, if someone can only edge joint with the aid of a machine planer and ganged up joints then they'll get caught out when they need to edge joint saw cut veneers, or an ultra thick bench top, any one of a hundred other situations that crop up regularly in real life cabinet making. I believe a student needs a higher level of hand planing skills than this procedure would equip them with.

Then there's the "single cramp" issue. No doubt it's fine in this application, fairly short boards that aren't highly stressed in the final piece of furniture. But there are plenty of times when a single cramp isn't going to deliver a sufficiently robust joint.

I liked the way he used bearers to support the workpieces, but he could have discussed how to "glue proof" those bearers, how to optimally size them for different types of sash cramp, and the practical effects of different glue choices on the process. He could also have talked more about laying out the timber for the best visual outcome, and the trade off between that and ease of subsequent planing.

I don't want to sound overly critical, it's self evident he's producing acceptable results on what is the single most important woodworking joint of all, just there's a lot more to the subject and there are many different ways of skinning this particular cat.

 

[Steve Maskery]

Well, yes, Custard, yes, there is more, but I thought he explained the process, and the reasons for it, very well.

Incidentally, you mention the importance of laying out the boards for the best visual outcome. You can see him doing this at the beginning, although he doesn't talk about it. The mathematics is interesting:

1 board = 1x4 options
2 boards = (2x4) x (1x4)
3 boards = (3x4) x (2x4) x (1x4)
.
.
.
7 boards = 7x4x6x4x5x4x4x4x3x4x2x4x1x4 = ?

Good luck with identifying the best combination for a dining table, eh?

 

[LBCarpentry]

Don't really have an issue with the length of his fence but your right, he is using far too much glue.
He should have spoken about the importance of coordinating the boards so that the rings run in opposite directions, which help to stabilise and avoid cupping. It does run along side choosing suitable faces that look good together, but it still needs to be factored in.
Far too much glue and why only use one clamp? Not only does he use a single clamp but then starts spinning the board up and over to clean the glue off. 9 times out of 10 you will ruin alignment.

 

[Peter Sefton]

I thought is was generally fairly good, not sure if he considered frown and smile end grain, but maybe I missed that bit. He did look a bit heavy on the glue but I once had a top fail through glue starvation it must of cost me £500 for about 2 pence worth of glue. I would have also added parcel tape or old polish to the bearers but I do wonder about planing large hollow joint like this, I fear it just adds stress to the timber and over a wider table top this adds up.

I can't see much merit in a 24" long square with a 4" long stock, not much reference area to check off. If they have any heal or snipe of the planer the squaring check is almost useless.

I have just been looking at some of my videos in the editing process, thinking is it to much detail, should I have mentioned.... I am sure you have been there Steve.

Cheers Peter

 

[Steve Maskery]

I have just been looking at some of my videos in the editing process, thinking is it to much detail, should I have mentioned.... I am sure you have been there Steve.

I certainly have. If I were doing the same again I'd do some things very differently indeed. I look at some of my early stuff and cringe. I console myself with the knowledge that the material content itself is what I envisaged. Incidentally, I've just upgraded my computer kit, so I shall be able to deal with HD files soon, I hope.

I missed the bit with the silly square. I agree, what's the point of that?

 

[custard]

Incidentally, you mention the importance of laying out the boards for the best visual outcome. You can see him doing this at the beginning, although he doesn't talk about it. The mathematics is interesting:

1 board = 1x4 options
2 boards = (2x4) x (1x4)
3 boards = (3x4) x (2x4) x (1x4)
.
.
.
7 boards = 7x4x6x4x5x4x4x4x3x4x2x4x1x4 = ?

Good luck with identifying the best combination for a dining table, eh?

I think I've got to respond on that Steve. Someone could interpret your comment as grain layout is just too complicated to bother with, and that would be a shame.

In reality many of the theoretical layout options are ruled out by the reality of the boards, so in practise it is perfectly manageable. And time spent considering how to use timber for the most harmonious effect is never time wasted. To take your example of a seven board dining table, I'd expect to spend the best part of an hour considering the layout possibilities. I'd also invest a fair bit of time getting rift sawn stock for all the legs so as to avoid that quarter sawn/flat sawn problem on adjacent faces, and I'd want some grace in the apron grain too. So maybe two or three hours would be spent thinking about grain orientation on a typical dining table, in my book that's not excessive and is absolutely essential if you're to get a viable price for furniture.

The alternative is the nightmare of Oak Furniture Land, where boards get slapped together in whatever order they appear, that's not a style of furniture making I ever want to emulate!

 

[Steve Maskery]

There was a smiley, custard and I certainly was not suggesting that we shouldn't bother trying. On the contrary, I agree it can make or break the appearance of a piece. Been there done that, far too often.

I just find the maths interesting.

Actually I was thinking of emulating OFL, they make more money than I do!

Another

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

FWIW I think the video was fine. We can always find ways to nit-pick, but on the whole, anyone copying this would end up with excellent results, so does what it sets out to do.

IMO a spring joint is primarily ( in reality, only) to reduce the number of clamps needed, so one clamp for that length of board looks OK and proves why a spring joint is useful. If more clamps were used, then springing the joint would be a pointless extra step.

There is a lot of pedantry about ripping with a short fence. In this example, the long fence makes more sense than a short one. In fact, there is a certain amount of ripping with a long fence that is safe and preferable to the short, if the operator knows when to modify the rule. The omitted guard is naughty, though.


North Bennet Street School has much in common with the Barnsley workshop, so generally is a good source of information.

Mike.

 

[transatlantic]

I always wonder why people don't just brush on the glue from a dish rather than squeeze out a beed that is most often going to be too much or too little.

 

[meccarroll]

In most of the boards that I have jointed I have used additional Biscuits or loose tong joints (or dominos can be used) for added rigidity and strength. These may not be needed to strengthen the glue line joint between the boards, should the boards remain stable. But they help spread the glue line "area across more fibres", adding strength to the joint which may prevent damage should shrinkage induce stresses in the joint at a later stage.

A good glue line joint does not fail on the glue line but often fails just beyond it at the connecting fibres, extending the line to include adjacent fibres greatly increases the joints strength.

If you are producing a joint in an item that costs several hundred pounds a few extra minutes taking extra precautions is surly a good investment.

I was taught to lightly sand all joints before gluing to help open the wood to accept the glue, as sometimes planing closes the pores (planing can have a burnishing effect).

Mark

 

[Peter Sefton]

In most of the boards that I have jointed I have used additional Biscuits or loose tong joints (or dominos can be used) for added rigidity and strength. These may not be needed to strengthen the glue line joint between the boards, should the boards remain stable. But they help spread the glue line "area across more fibres", adding strength to the joint which may prevent damage should shrinkage induce stresses in the joint at a later stage.

A good glue line joint does not fail on the glue line but often fails just beyond it at the connecting fibres, extending the line to include adjacent fibres greatly increases the joints strength.

If you are producing a joint in an item that costs several hundred pounds a few extra minutes taking extra precautions is surly a good investment.

I was taught to lightly sand all joints before gluing to help open the wood to accept the glue, as sometimes planing closes the pores (planing can have a burnishing effect).

Mark

Mark you make some interesting points, we also usually add biscuits which does add strength but also ensures the boards don't slip in the cramps. I don't sand the joint after planing but I don't use wax on the sole when jointing the edges for a similar reason.

Cheers Peter

 

[meccarroll]

I don't sand the joint after planing but I don't use wax on the sole when jointing the edges for a similar reason.

Cheers Peter

Good point to note.

Mark

 

[doctor Bob]

If one of my guys fanny arsed around for that long gluing up 2 boards they'd be out the door.

 

[Droogs]

Watching the vid, I found it quite good at putting forward the process one goes through. Safety aspects aside (it's up to everyone to be as safe as they feel they need to be), but i feel that, if you are going to be making up panels on a regular basis then using something like the device in the link below would be a far better way to base your panel making process on.

http://woodarchivist.com/2840-diy-wall- ... lue-press/

 

[woodbrains]

but i feel that, if you are going to be making up panels on a regular basis then using something like the device in the link below would be a far better way to base your panel making process on.

http://woodarchivist.com/2840-diy-wall- ... lue-press/

Hello,

Yes, though if you were making panels regularly, you would just invest in some Plano Panel Clamps or similar proprietary set up. As it is, a small maker will press sash cramps into service as these have double duty in the workshop.

As for Mr Grumpy, I doubt any graduate of Bennett Street School would ever be on the wrong side of your door to be shown it, so I'd not worry too much about that! [-( .

Mike.

 

[pcb1962]

I always wonder why people don't just brush on the glue from a dish rather than squeeze out a beed that is most often going to be too much or too little.

I am always disappointed when I see a professional spreading glue with their finger on an instructional video.

 

[doctor Bob]

As for Mr Grumpy, I doubt any graduate of Bennett Street School would ever be on the wrong side of your door to be shown it, so I'd not worry too much about that! [-( .

Mike.

I have no doubt you are correct. If I do get one I'll show him how to do it commercially and make a decent living, I'm pretty confident my 2 boards would look no different to his 2 boards. Imagine how long a decent sized worktop would take him.

 

[meccarroll]

I can't imagine any productive workshop lining it's walls with endless rows of panel clamping equipment, mainly because I have never seen them put to use in any of the commercial environments that I have worked in. I think the space taken up would be unjustified in real terms. One of these might be useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFwGZhec3AI

Or how about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXl7IOZO1Uk



Mark

 

[Woodmonkey]

If one of my guys fanny pineappled around for that long gluing up 2 boards they'd be out the door.

:lol: I'm pretty sure I saw the fanny pineapples play brixton academy in the 90's