Opinion please re movement problem with wood floor

[markturner]

Hi, I wondered if I could get some opinions from you other professionals here regarding a problem on one of our jobs. We are working a total refurbishment of a victorian terraced house, including complete insulation, new floors ( not joists) and replastering.

The client supplied the new floorboards, which were kiln dried larch in approx 180mm width, tongued and grooved. Obviously these are required at a certain point in the construction, door frames, heating pipework etc all come through or sit on the floor. The heating was not on, and the house has been open to outside conditions, with guys coming and going etc whilst working for the last 5 weeks since the floor was laid and the plaster skim was dry. There was a 25 sq m screeded floor installed in the kitchen after the upstairs floors were laid and before the downstairs.

We laid the floors and they looked great, however, this weekend, the heating was turned on, as the clients are moving in tomorrow. in the last 2 days, 3 -4 mm gaps have opened up between the boards ( they are all secret nailed to the joists with a porta nailer) and many are cupping.

The client is insisting this is our fault, what is your take on this?

Thanks, Mark

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Its not anybodys "fault". Its 100% due to the fact the boards were clearly full of moisture before they were laid. Since the heating has been restored they've dried like mad, shed their water and are shrinking across the grain.

The issue of accountability is down to what expectations were set and agreed in contract between you and the client. He says they were kiln dried when they arrived on site right? Did anyone test their moisture content at that point? Have they actually got wet whilst in the unheated refurb? If they haven't been subjected to direct water then they will take on some ambient moisture but provided they were stored dry it shouldn't have been that much. If they got significantly wet due to careless storage then they may well have swelled enough to cause this shrinkage problem.

Bottom line, were they wet on arrival or did they get wet after arrival. If they got wet after arrival and you are accountable for "caring" for the job materials then its your shout. If they were wet on arrival and kiln dried is just a loose "marketing term" from his larch supplier then you're not. I suggest you find out his supplier and secretly visit and ask to see his larch t&g to investigate how they're stored (aka are they really dry). If they're on a pallet outside in his yard then he's tucked your client up and that's where his legal pointy stick should go.

 

[carlb40]

All flooring no matter whether KD or not should be stored within the house to be fitted for at least 2 weeks prior to fitting? But that will only let the the timber acclimatise to the conditions at the time. Adding heating will always cause an issue unless the timber has been stored in similar conditions for years.

 

[Jacob]

Unless they were kept dry at room temperature (heating on) they would absorb moisture, especially if there are any wet trades going on, which involves very high humidity for quite a long time. Then they shrink back when all is dry and the heating on. It helps if they are protected with Profilm (whatever it's called) which is a breathable membrane like Tyvek
One (more difficult) trick is to lay the boards without nailing, upside down or protected, then to nail them weeks later only when all wet trades are well finished and everything dried out again, ideally in mid summer.
So if you didn't protect them it's probably your fault. On the other hand the client says they were dry but that would only be at the point of leaving the kiln, where were they in the meantime?

 

[markturner]

Hi Bob, no there was no question of them getting physically wet, although I imagine the ambient temperature & humidity of the house before the heating went on was different from the kiln.

They are saying we laid too early, but that's' clearly impractical to not lay the floors until the very last job - skirtings, doorframes, etc need to be fitted on top of the floor, the radiator pipes come through the floor, and we had waited until the vast majority of plastering was done and dry. We also had a dehumidifier going in the house at one stage.

When we laid them, ( we laid the top floor as soon as they were delivered) they were completely tight, so if they absorbed moisture in the last 6 weeks before we put the heating on, I would have thought we would have noticed issues with them bulging etc due to expansion.....they only shrank when the heating went on.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Its a bit of a pig Mark and no mistake. One compromise I might suggest is that you share the cost of making good with the client. The thinking goes along the lines......you bought the materials in a vacuum without referring to us....we should have let them acclimatise longer but we trusted your assertion that because KD they were dry enough. Turns out they weren't so lets agree both parties made mistakes and split the difference. You stay out of court and save half the cost. I'm assuming you would then have to fit them too of course but that's what Sundays are for right??

Not sure if that helps but I think the only alternative is to just say no and "tough it out". Which isn't the most customer friendly outcome to the tale.

 

[MMUK]

A little late now but I tend to lay a temporary floor of OSB for full refurbs, using an offcut of T&G to set architraves and skirtings in place. The T&G I insist, is stored in the house for at least two weeks under normal domestic conditions, ie; after the CH has been installed and is working. I work this into my schedules when quoting for jobs and explain the reasons to the client, whether they supply materials or not.

 

[carlb40]

I agree with Bob, you will have to take a hit on this one. If you want to keep your good name intact, you probably have no choice. Last thing you want is a court case or bad word to get around.

As they say - You're only as good as your last job.

 

[Jacob]

On the other hand - some shrinkage is unavoidable - if you had the boards up tight fully dry in mid summer sooner or later you'd have an expansion problem and buckling floors. This might be absorbed by compression but then gaps would open later. The whole point of T&G is to close gaps but allow movement. A floor will shrink and expand seasonally - it's just a question of how much gap is acceptable/inevitable.

 

[markturner]

Thanks for the input everyone. There is no litigation etc , and I have already agreed to remove and refit after they have moved in and the boards have acclimatized for a couple of months.

In these circumstances, I always make sure the job is right, we have worked hard to build the business on a reputation of absolute quality.

They just came straight back to me saying it was our fault, which kind of got my back up, as we did everything we could to minimize issues, like this, including having a heavy duty de hum unit going non stop for several weeks. There is only so much you can do to prevent movement in wood after all, and I think we have done that.

If it was a single point, I would feel better, but this is one of several areas on the job where its a grey area ( mainly contractual differences as to what is on the drawings and what is in the schedule) and they have screwed us down tight on the price with initial discount, then, as the skip costs were way more than the provisional sum, I agreed to do all the rubbish removal at cost price, plus another large item, totalling around 15K worth of turnover at no profit.... and every variation is fiercely contested by them, the cumulative effect is that I feel its all one way, flowing from me. The problem is, their budget is probably 20K less than it should be, and this just translates to them not wanting to pay for anything......

I will of course suck it all down and make sure they are completely happy, and the job is perfect, but I like to know that I have the moral high ground....

Cheers, Mark

 

[markturner]

A little late now but I tend to lay a temporary floor of OSB for full refurbs, using an offcut of T&G to set architraves and skirtings in place. The T&G I insist, is stored in the house for at least two weeks under normal domestic conditions, ie; after the CH has been installed and is working. I work this into my schedules when quoting for jobs and explain the reasons to the client, whether they supply materials or not.

That's a really good idea....

 

[kostello]

On the other hand - some shrinkage is unavoidable - if you had the boards up tight fully dry in mid summer sooner or later you'd have an expansion problem and buckling floors. This might be absorbed by compression but then gaps would open later. The whole point of T&G is to close gaps but allow movement. A floor will shrink and expand seasonally - it's just a question of how much gap is acceptable/inevitable.

Thanks for the input everyone. There is no litigation etc , and I have already agreed to remove and refit after they have moved in and the boards have acclimatized for a couple of months.

In these circumstances, I always make sure the job is right, we have worked hard to build the business on a reputation of absolute quality.

They just came straight back to me saying it was our fault, which kind of got my back up, as we did everything we could to minimize issues, like this, including having a heavy duty de hum unit going non stop for several weeks. There is only so much you can do to prevent movement in wood after all, and I think we have done that.

If it was a single point, I would feel better, but this is one of several areas on the job where its a grey area ( mainly contractual differences as to what is on the drawings and what is in the schedule) and they have screwed us down tight on the price with initial discount, then, as the skip costs were way more than the provisional sum, I agreed to do all the rubbish removal at cost price, plus another large item, totalling around 15K worth of turnover at no profit.... and every variation is fiercely contested by them, the cumulative effect is that I feel its all one way, flowing from me. The problem is, their budget is probably 20K less than it should be, and this just translates to them not wanting to pay for anything......

I will of course suck it all down and make sure they are completely happy, and the job is perfect, but I like to know that I have the moral high ground....

Cheers, Mark

Sorry to hear about this........

But glad to hear that you are going to sort it out

No good deed goes unpunished.... ;-)

 

[Jacob]

Sounds like a typical arseho|e client. Nothing (much) you can do! I've had one or two over the years but they are fairly uncommon and usually show themselves early on at which point you put up your prices or pull out, if it's not too late.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

agreed Mark. Try and chalk it off old son......the clients clearly a p.r.i.c.k

 

[rafezetter]

Thanks for the input everyone. There is no litigation etc , and I have already agreed to remove and refit after they have moved in and the boards have acclimatized for a couple of months.

In these circumstances, I always make sure the job is right, we have worked hard to build the business on a reputation of absolute quality.

They just came straight back to me saying it was our fault, which kind of got my back up, as we did everything we could to minimize issues, like this, including having a heavy duty de hum unit going non stop for several weeks. There is only so much you can do to prevent movement in wood after all, and I think we have done that.

If it was a single point, I would feel better, but this is one of several areas on the job where its a grey area ( mainly contractual differences as to what is on the drawings and what is in the schedule) and they have screwed us down tight on the price with initial discount, then, as the skip costs were way more than the provisional sum, I agreed to do all the rubbish removal at cost price, plus another large item, totalling around 15K worth of turnover at no profit.... and every variation is fiercely contested by them, the cumulative effect is that I feel its all one way, flowing from me. The problem is, their budget is probably 20K less than it should be, and this just translates to them not wanting to pay for anything......

I will of course suck it all down and make sure they are completely happy, and the job is perfect, but I like to know that I have the moral high ground....

Cheers, Mark

Before agreeing (or doing) anything else with the floor, I'd ask the customer questions regarding the supplier of the flooring etc and tell him you'll be doing you own investigations - as you have suspicions about the wood as it was sold to him, as ROB said, kiln dried is just what happened to them at the start, not how they were stored or for how long, most laymen don't understand that wood changes according to ambient conditions.

It seems to be more and more the case that people want builders cheaper and cheaper, but top quality work at the same time - so I guess you have to consider this in the future, if a customer squeezes that tightly from the start, it leaves you with no room for contingency - and if I've learned anything from all the building trade shows I've watched over the years it's that things WILL happen and a contingency fund is almost always required, so if the client is the type who wants the job cheap from the off, chances are when unexpected things happen, it won't be them to accept the inevitable and pay, or at least contribute to the cost of correction.

For a 15k job with essentially nothing to show for it, but a customer who might not give you a glowing reference, regardless of the quality of the other work (odd how with some people, 99 things right and 1 thing wrong and you're a cowboy builder to some), sounds like the next time you get one of these, refuse it, as you are obviously worth a lot more, and would make more money doing several smaller jobs in the same period.

 

[blackrodd]

I have just seen this thread. In a court of law, quality of workmanship is very difficult to prove or disprove.
But, Inline with previous posts, The last thing you need as a professional tradesman is a court case and bad any adverse publicity.
You have taken the right step in the agreement to re-lay the floor.
I will be so bold as to say any natural ta& softwood flooring will shrink this time of the year, unless wrapped and sealed straight from the kiln, it'll suck up any moisture.
I have seen ta& flooring shrink to the extent that the tongue was not even in the groove on the whole of the first floor.
Personally, Stable door and horse aside, Larch is too soft for flooring and when you see the gaps in a boat hull, shrinks badly.
I used a de humidyfyer years ago after my very silly apprentice left a hosepipe running and flooded out my barn conversion. All the oak latch doors buckled and shrunk. Oak Skirting mitres opened up and buckled etc nightmare.
Forced drying is very dodgy,I learnt a lot from that job!
I wish you well on getting a good review from you're client, His attitude may well change much for the better once he realises that you are both on the same side.
Regards Rodders

 

[deema]

Just read your post, sorry to hear of the issue.

Looking at the numbers, the wood has shrunk by 2%, which is very excessive in 2 days. Looking up the shrinkage properties, you can see that depending on whether its flat sawn or quarter sawn, the movement you have seen varies between high to extreme. (Depending on board thickness, I should add)

Total longitudinal shrinkage 0.3 %
Total radial shrinkage 3.3 %
Total tangential shrinkage 7.8%

I would in your shoes measure the moisture content of the laid wood on the underside and on the top surface as well as checking the un-laid wood. If it's within the normal equilibrium moisture content, re-laying it after a few weeks will not resolve the problem. It will continue to move. You will need to wait until the boards have equalised and that will take sometime.

Equilibrium moisture content
(20° C⁄ 37 % rel. humidity) 8.4 %
(20° C⁄ 83 % rel. humidity). 17.1%

 

[RobinBHM]

I m sorry to hear about your, I hope you get a fair resolution.

I stopped dealing with solid floors for this reason.

If it is Siberian larch, which is dense and suitable for flooring, it has a high tangential movement. Rooms with solid floors should maintain a R.H. of 40-60% which means a new floor should be laid in a room within this range and after being acclimatised. The problem is that flooring needs to be done well before the end of a project to allow 2nd fix trades but this is long before a stable state is reached. I bet the client was pushing for a completion date........

 

[SteveF]

sorry about your woes, and hope u get a good compromise

also sorry to jump on this thread
but it is along the same lines
i have an engineered floor for my shed
should i leave it in there for 2 weeks to acclimatise?
it has been stored in a warm house
i am desperate to get it down...i can't move in my shed where everything is stacked up


Steve

 

[John15]

I have found this link helpful. It gives the amount of movement expected for various changes in MC, although I guess too late for your current flooring contract. It's a USA website but most of the species listed are familiar. http://www.woodweb.com/Resources/RSCalculators.html.
Cheers,
John