old growth redwood

[johnnyb]

every time I price accoya I always think how can it not make sense to grow redwood until its bigger then sell that for exterior joinery. why are we trying to reinvent the wheel? as long as there's no sapwood I'm sure it would endure. surely the extra cost would be fairly minor. obviously the sapwood could be used on interiors as well.

 

[johnnyb]

I partly say it because the 9 by 4 was from Finland and its got minimal sapwood and is resinous. swedish is cleaner but mucho sappo

 

[Jacob]

every time I price accoya I always think how can it not make sense to grow redwood until its bigger then sell that for exterior joinery. why are we trying to reinvent the wheel? as long as there's no sapwood I'm sure it would endure. surely the extra cost would be fairly minor. obviously the sapwood could be used on interiors as well.

I think it's because all those wide boards and massive timbers in older buildings were probably from virgin forest. It takes takes time to grow bigger stuff and diminishing old growth boreal forest is seen as too ecologically valuable to cut.

 

[Stigmorgan]

I guess the bigger they get, the slower they grow, the more they cost

 

[MARK.B.]

Trees take so long to grow a Redwood according to google gets most of its height in around the first 100 years and then it starts to get fatter but that takes many years per inch of girth . So i guess its all about time and money,planting a forest to fell i imagine wont be cheap and then your grandkids may just about be able to harvest it at a profit

 

[Jameshow]

I went to a garage timber clearance this week organised by a friend of the deceased and there were three 15" x1" x8ft ponderosa pine boards without a knot in sight. Sadly the friend wanted them..

Finding that today would be different if not impossible??

Cheers James

 

[thetyreman]

I've noticed how crap quality is at my local yard, it's gone downhill massively, even 5ths they no longer allow you to self select, I'm trying to use old doors and old wood as much as possible now.

 

[johnnyb]

I don't think what's needed is massive wide planks. just baulks minus sap. how long before a redwoods harvested now. the market wouldnt be small. it has to be better than messing around with acetic acid and bringing stuff from the Congo.swedish wood is high quality but is very sappy. I do sort very sappy stuff out at the yard tbh.

 

[johnnyb]

maybe sap could be sawn off at the mill and the timber sized for joinery sections.

 

[LeeAkeroyd]

every time I price accoya I always think how can it not make sense to grow redwood until its bigger then sell that for exterior joinery. why are we trying to reinvent the wheel? as long as there's no sapwood I'm sure it would endure. surely the extra cost would be fairly minor. obviously the sapwood could be used on interiors as well.

Johnny Accoya is derived from plantation grown Radiata Pine (New Zealand and South America hence the wide growth rings compared to Redwood) and grows in a fraction of the time which gives the clear sections and long lengths. Now compare that to a Pine tree growing in a far colder climate to achieve the same length of clear timber from the butt log would probably take 100 years plus to be ready for harvest.

Additionally the heartwood of Redwood is only classed as moderately durable class 2 or 3? Can't remember off the top of my head due to the Kraken and Coke whereas Accoya is class 1 durability putting it up there with the most natural, durable hardwoods.

 

[johnnyb]

the problem is the price of accoya not its durability and green cred. companies already grow redwood and sell it at economical prices. an extra 30 or 40 years on selected plantations couldn't increase the cost that much. accoya whilst being the darling of many joiners shops won't become universal until the process is out of patent and the price becomes sane. tropical hardwoods will not be here in a short time. any alternatives are worth considering. I think back to the seventies and eighties where wood windows were universal and redwood being the cheapest was universally used(mass market went upvc after)unfortuneatly the stuff was harvested to soon and rotted badly.

 

[Jacob]

..... I think back to the seventies and eighties where wood windows were universal and redwood being the cheapest was universally used(mass market went upvc after)unfortuneatly the stuff was harvested to soon and rotted badly.

Harvesting nothing to do with it - it was bad design and/or modern paint which finished off the softwood window.

 

[Adam W.]

Harvesting age has got loads to do with it, as older growth wood contains more hydrocarbons which contribute to its durability. It's not just the paint.

I've pointed this out before, here.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/making-oil-paint.131704/page-2#post-1491256

 

[Jacob]

Harvesting age has got loads to do with it, as older growth wood contains more hydrocarbons which contribute to its durability. It's not just the paint.

I've pointed this out before, here.

https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/threads/making-oil-paint.131704/page-2#post-1491256

My theory is that we have more old growth in old buildings simply because it was more available and for several hundred years forestry was all about cutting virgin forest. It survives because they used linseed oil paint.
Conducting my own experiments with new redwood so far says it will last much longer with linseed oil paints. 10 or more years on and looking good (but needing painting must get it done next year!). Whereas some old and new joinery which I painted with modern paints (following all the instructions) in early days, has shed paint like autumn leaves and either rotted away or been painted again with linseed oil.
I first started thinking about it many years ago when I decided to strip and repaint my large Victorian bay windows. I noted complete absence of any sign of having been stripped previously - in other words the paint was original, 100 or more years old, but with later layers added to top it up. I didn't know any better I thought stripping was essential, in fact wasn't necessary at all. I've done similar on old doors and modern paint has started to peel 3 or 4 years later. Not any more, thanks to linseed oil paint!

 

[Adam W.]

Desch and Dinwoodie are a good read if you can get hold of a copy without having to sell a kidney first, that is.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Timber-Structure-Properties-Conversion-Use/dp/0333609050
I'm not discounting the linseed oil paint, as I think it's a good thing too, which is why I've started to make my own for everything.

 

[johnnyb]

I've seen it in a window I removed last week. sap wood has rotted heartwood is fine. I'll take some photos. on some the sap section is on the outside on others on the inside. sap= rot heart= fine. I reckon maintenance will be a constant issue so expect long intervals between painting( just due to very high labour costs) this means in its life a window( regardless of paint base) will have years with the vulnerable bits unpainted. any sap will mean rot. rot is unsightly and will be replaced rarely fixed. upstairs this is multiplied as access is expensive.

 

[Jacob]

I've seen it in a window I removed last week. sap wood has rotted heartwood is fine. I'll take some photos. on some the sap section is on the outside on others on the inside. sap= rot heart= fine. I reckon maintenance will be a constant issue so expect long intervals between painting( just due to very high labour costs) this means in its life a window( regardless of paint base) will have years with the vulnerable bits unpainted. any sap will mean rot. rot is unsightly and will be replaced rarely fixed. upstairs this is multiplied as access is expensive.

Well yes sapwood not good.

 

[johnnyb]

I reckon I could get Finnish red 9 by 4 cut out the Sap and still come in at a fraction the cost ( of accoya)
maybe less. if you make windows from redwood invariably the sap ends up on the inside corners( fine) or the outside corners( disastrous)
I also have some Swedish Windows in my summerhouse( bnos auction buy)these have an aluminium extrusion over the wooden sill. echoing my love of a dressed lead sill.

 

[johnnyb]

I also think casements in frames are largely unnecessary and lead to areas of unmaintainable paint.(obviously openers being the exception) direct glazing being preferable on all counts.

 

[Jacob]

I reckon I could get Finnish red 9 by 4 cut out the Sap and still come in at a fraction the cost ( of accoya)
maybe less. if you make windows from redwood invariably the sap ends up on the inside corners( fine) or the outside corners( disastrous)
I also have some Swedish Windows in my summerhouse( bnos auction buy)these have an aluminium extrusion over the wooden sill. echoing my love of a dressed lead sill.

The best cills I've seen were in some Georgian sashes where the front half of the cill which often rots, was simply not there. The bottom sash sat on half a cill and overlapped it by 6mm or so forming a drip. The boxes either side sat on the half cill at the back and sloping stonework at the front.
Cills I've got here are good too - no cill at all really, just a bottom rail sitting on the stone which falls away at 45º. Nowhere for water to sit.
I'll do a snap later.