Newbie woodworker questions - dust extraction

[M_Chavez]

Hi All,

I have been lurking around this forum for months and finally decided to post, seeking some advice on setting up a workshop for woodwork (mainly lutherie).

I am currently looking to get some woodworking machinery and I am planning to have a medium-sized bandsaw, router/saw table, jointer, thickness sander and a pillar drill. Unfortunately, all this machinery will very quickly fill the floor space, which leaves very little room for dust extraction.

So far I have been using a small shop vac for dust extraction and, frankly speaking, the shop vac sucks!
It sucks the dust and chips really well, but it is too loud. My workshop is in the garden surrounded by the neighbours, so I am keen to keep the noise down as much as possible, and I never run the vac when working with hand tools, including scraping and sanding (which I tend to do late in the evenings). A dust mask helps a little, but generally, it would be so much better if I could just flick on a silent induction motor powered extractor. I have started noticing that I tend to rush power tool jobs just to switch the vac off sooner, which is bad for both my safety and the quality of my work!

Can you please recommend a good value for money, small, quiet extractor? I understand that I need to filter particles down to 1 micron for woodwork?

It looks like charwood is a popular option (http://www.charnwood.net/products/produ ... athway-109), which is right at the very top of my budget for extraction (about £100 more than I'd like to pay for it), but finding a space for it would really be a challenge.

Is there anything smaller that would still have an induction motor and a fine particle filter?
If not, I can probably compromise on the drill and, potentially, the bandsaw, going for smaller, bench-top entry-level versions of these tools.

Also, my power supply is limited to 13 amps, which limits me to only about 2500W to play with.

Thank you for your help.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I'm not much help on dust extraction but.....Your shop supply could be upgraded quite easily to 16amp assuming your consumer unit is modern. That would help with some larger motors and really all that needs doing is a larger fuse fitting into your consumer unit and a few special sockets. My planer/thicknesser for example, requires a 16amp supply. It opens up a few more options later without going for a full 3 phase supply.

Just as an aside. On 16amp, I can run a Sedgwick PT255 and a Camvac 2000W extractor at the same time (not that the camvac is ideal for the PT....but thats another tale). I stagger startup on them.

 

[Ttrees]

Hi Chavez
What type of guitars are you planning to make, electric or acoustic ?
Sounds like acoustics by the tools your mentioning..
I would focus on using the hand plane and go look up David w (D_W here)
The plane will change the way you think about building if it is acoustics.

I can run a 3HP 3 phase 24" bandsaw on 13a plug by the way.
Likewise a 3HP 3phase 12" tablesaw .
Dont be worried about your 13A plug if you want a decent 20"+ bandsaw that will take a 1" blade,
You will get a much better deal on three phase machines, and they will be better quality a lot of the time.
Just make sure the motors are "dual voltage" .....
Meaning they have 220/240V (low voltage mode called "delta"( triangle symbol) configuration)
stamped on the nameplate alongside the 380V (high industrial voltage "star"(Y symbol) configuration)
You can easily program the startup current to suit the supply you have...as in time to get up to speed

Try and do as much as you can without sanding, otherwise you will need a decent DC that will need a hepa pleated filter.
How much timber do you plan to joint ?
A jointer seems a waste of space if you are really tight for it., sounds like you have an idea of making a snazzy bench
You could make your own drum sander if you wanted, but I would use a plane over it anyday.
The better the saw the smoother the wood comes from it, 3phase motors helps in this regard too , I would focus on the best bandsaw you can find for cutting tall stock more than anything
Hope this helps
Tom

 

[M_Chavez]

Thanks!

I was hoping to keep things simple and not go into 3 phase. Safely upgrading the electrics to 16A might also be a bit tricky without having to look at re-doing all the electrics in the house (I live in an old-ish house and don't fully agree with how the wiring was done, but hey, I'm not an electrician!)

Tom,
Yes, primarily acoustics, but might expand into other instruments (mandos, fiddles) and look at electrics at some point.
Bandsaw wise I was looking at something along the lines of Kitty 613. 19.5cm depth is quite limiting, but at least it's small/light enough and fit for most tasks (apart from resawing wood into soundboard blanks for larger guitars, which is not something I am planning on doing in the first few years anyway.
Sander, router/saw table will be shop built and hopefully the sander should not generate too much dust. I'll be using it to true the blanks up after hand planing them.

Hand tools are great and I've built my first guitar using only hand tools, but they are time consuming and I recon I'll nedd a good 10 years of experience to start geting acceptable results out of them.

 

[sunnybob]

your lungs will choke with dust if you dont bother.

Your priorities need to be realigned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_o ... ry_disease

 

[Myfordman]

Unless you are working with MDF, which does not sound likely, it is only the sander and the router that will create much fine dust, the stuff that does you damage. I'd have though a 1 hp extractor and a filter should be fine. Look at used ones to help the budget. Whilst the induction motor will be much quieter than your current shop vac be aware that noise will mainly come from the air flow rather than the motor itself.

 

[sunnybob]

The sander, by definition, makes more fine dust than any other machine in the workshop

 

[YorkshireMartin]

The sander, by definition, makes more fine dust than any other machine in the workshop

You've obviously never seen me use a hand plane. :lol:

 

[Ttrees]

Since you are going to be using exotics with poisonous quinones that can make you sensitized to lots of wood.
You need to go the hand route, if you are not wanting decent dust collection.
If you get a reaction from breathing that fine exotic poisonous dust in, that could be bad news.
You never need to true up a planed surface. ever.
Get educated on using them !
They are not slow atall, and take you to a level of precision unobtainable by other means.
David Charlesworth, for the precision you require, simply the best person at explaining anything.
It will make you zoom forward, how ever long you think it would take you to master the plane, in one video.
Rob Cosman,Mitch Peacock,David W,Chris Schwarz to name but a few.

If you can wire a plug and write on this forum, you can hook up a VFD to a three phase machine. simples.
No brainer if it says 220/240V on the motor nameplate, yer good to go.
I say get a 20" bandsaw, it will have the same footprint as a smaller one.
You said you are going to make machines, I think its a better idea to refurbish old rust buckets instead.
Have fun M Chavez
Tom

 

[nabs]

Thanks!
Safely upgrading the electrics to 16A might also be a bit tricky without having to look at re-doing all the electrics in the house

... very wise - in addition, the amount of equipment you can run at any one time will be constrained by the size of the electrical connection to your workshop and the length of the cable run between it and the point the mains supply enters your house.

It is straightforward to calculate the maximum safe load if you know these two bits of info, but if you are not sure it would be worth talking to an electrician before ordering any new kit.

cheers

 

[M_Chavez]

Thanks.
Hand tools or power tools, there is still a need for a good quiet sucker as there will be a fair amount of scraping and hand sanding.
What would be your suggestions for a "proper" extractor? Where does the linked charnwood fit in?

How loud is the airflow in the extractor compared to a vac by the way?

I would also appreciate any recommendations for a bigger bandsaw that would weight under 90kg, so I could move it around if required. Say, £250 budget for a used one.

 

[Ttrees]

I don't think you can get a good and quiet extractor unfortunately.
You could look at festool or fein pricey though!
I believe these to be the best regarded ones here.
Have a look at Marius Hornbergers videos on mini cyclones.
As for bandsaws I would stretch to about 400,450 and get a 20" machine.
You want a 20" machine about 200kg at least
My saw is 300kg and its not hard to move on a mobile base.
If you want a wee saw get a startrite 351 or 352 or something like this Italian one
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Meber-320-Pro ... Sw53NY~ig8
I think if your skint you should just get a machine that you won't regret.
Good luck

 

[Ttrees]

Here is another cheap small saw
https://www.gumtree.com/p/power-saws/re ... 1246453946
Tip: search for bandsaw and band saw
I'd wait it out and find a large one though
Good luck

 

[M_Chavez]

Thanks.
I think that 300kg on wheels will go right through my wooden floor down to the concrete base below the workshop!

The bandsaw budget can probably stretch and I can wait until a good one comes up locally, but SWMBO is already not happy with all the workshop set-up expenses. Depends on what I end up getting for dust extraction.
Am I right to think that a "filter bag" that filters down to 5 micron is not god enough?

 

[Ttrees]

Thanks.
I think that 300kg on wheels will go right through my wooden floor down to the concrete base below the workshop!

Then it would be like a old skool workshop with a pit saw
I would not be dissuaded from getting a 20" machine and supporting underneath the saw.

Am I right to think that a "filter bag" that filters down to 5 micron is not god enough?

The bags are for allowing only the finest dust to escape so you can breath in the lovely airborne dust that will float around
Look at Bill Pentz's website and wood toxicity chart.
Good luck with your search

 

[M_Chavez]

Thank you very much, ttrees. Most of the guitar wood is trying to kill me. Perhaps not the best choice of the hobby.

Going to change my priorities and set up a decent dust system first, before I even bother getting a bandsaw. Thank you for the link - there is a lot of information to process.
Blowing the air outside seems like the best option so far.

I think a hepa filter on the shop vac would be a good start, followed by air extraction and my dust mask is always on anyway ...

Would anyone have any links that would show the amount of dust generated by different power tools?

 

[Ttrees]

I think you will need a powerful system to extract outside and it will be noisy.
Or a decent filter.
I am going to make a mask like on this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrDdqXzEwHQ
As my respirator fogs up quickly, link
sensitized-to-iroko-next-timber-choice-whats-the-chances-t103096.html

As you mentioned you want to be a quiet neighbor.
You will make noise with a router and tablesaw etc
Bigger bandsaws are a lot quieter than smaller ones, since you can use a band with beam strength and not rely on thrust bearings.
Bandsaws don't throw out the dust like a tablesaw does, my back is covered from tablesaw dust on my overalls .
You could make cheap air filters for your shop and work happily with hand tools in the evening.
Don't fool yourself into thinking you need powertools for everything.
Making shavings is a lot more enjoyable than dust.
Here's a video using mostly hand tools
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT-x-RSySpg

Hope your enjoying your new shop
Tom

 

[M_Chavez]

Thank you, ttrees.

"Hope your enjoying your new shop " - not after reading the toxicity table!

So, downdraft table coming up on my list of tools to have, as well as a 24" fan to blow all them nasties out of the door.

 

[Ttrees]

So, downdraft table coming up on my list of tools to have, as well as a 24" fan to blow all them nasties out of the door.

I think a good bench should come way before a downdraft table, One that you can plane on.
I have never looked into downdraft tables much apart from seeing some on the OLF
I don't know how big those motors are etc.

The air filters have fans like you might see done on JayBates channel and many others
The out the door is for extraction by impeller.

There is a way you can do this all by hand
I have a big bandsaw because it produces less waste in expensive timbers and smoother
This is the most important tool for the luthier.
I have 1 tablesaw because I also collect reclaimed timbers to make a Cosman/Todd Stock style bench,
This bench is so I can thickness backs ,sides, and soundboards accurately.
The other saw was cheap that I thought was a home built farm saw judging from the pic, and thought it had a 3HP motor
I was going to make a cyclone from it .
Turns out it would make a nice saw if fixed up, welding some rack and pinion teeth back on again
and other work.
A tablesaw it handy though for various things, not as essential as the bandsaw though.

I have no plans to make a downdraft table because I don't plan to sand that much.
Cutting is faster than abrasion.
Get into hand planes dude, that is the way to
Once you figure out how to make things precise working in tolerance, you can use those skills
for other materials also
Tom

 

[M_Chavez]

Thanks. Yes, a workbench is on the to-do list. I've got a whole book on them, but would be interested in your advice on what design to choose. I was leaning towards a sturdy flat table with various jigs clamped or bolted onto it.

There are things where, imho, hand tools are not the way to go. Cutting jigs out of 18mm ply? Accurately ripping cedrella or maple neck blanks down the middle? Jointing all the neck parts? chiselling an accurate channel for a truss rod? Cutting the rosette channel by hand? Cutting the binding channel by hand?
Cutting with hand saws creates a fair amount of dust anyway?

Same applies to sanding - truing up the dome on the bracing and the bridge? Applying finishing touches on the binding? rounding off the kerfing to match the dome of the soundboard and the back? Finishing touches and true-up on the fingerboard? Lapping the soles of the planes?

I would be very grateful for any tips and advice on the tasks above.

In addition to all that, the scraper creates a fair amount of dust along with the small shavings and even the hand planes will leave the floor dusty after thicknessing the soundboard.