Newbie - How to buy and dimension timber?

[Jeremy]

Hi all, newbie here again.

I am starting to think about my workshop in earnest now, and I'm afraid I have a shed load of newbie questions about buying wood.

My ultimate (naive) goal is to make several items of furniture from scratch, coffe table, entertainment unit, sideboard etc etc. Obviously I will be starting with simpler items until I am of a reasonable standard.

However, I guess that such items will use a lot of wood, and I'm wondering whether it will be worth my while to invest in a planer and thicknesser in order to save timber costs? (What does PAR stand for BTW? Planed and something?)

What is the minimum kind of price I would be looking at to get something that isn't going to fall apart the first time I use it? Do people generally have both machines, a combi, or just one machine (Which one?) and use other methods to replace the missing functionality?

How do people dimension timber without either of these machines? Purely with hand planes? :shock:

Or do you think I would be better starting off with PAR stock first until I have got some experience under my belt?

Where do people buy (real) timber from? Their local sawmill? I seem to read a lot on here about ordering online from miles away and getting it delivered. Is this normal, or just for more exotic woods?

Sorry for all the questions

 

[wizer]

PAR = Planed All Round
Sawn - Rough Sawn
Wanet Edge - Still has a bit of bark on one or both edges

The obvious answer here is to advise you buy a P/T. It will save you time and money in the long run. BUT, as you say, get one or two projects under your belt. Make a few simple projects and work out if you enjoy working with wood.

There's no doubt that you'll need the P/T if you continue with this hobby. You could learn the hand tool route, but there is an additional learning curve and an outlay on good tools.

 

[StevieB]

Problem with most workshop machinery is that to get something decent you need to spend a small fortune (for a hobby). A good PT will easily cost at least £700 if not alot more. by good I mean something that works as intended out of the box with a minimum of tuning, fettling, setting up and otherwise playing with just to get a straight edge / face.

Cheaper machines do exist and they are built to a price and spec. Do not expect perfect results from these machines. Unfortunately with a PT, perfect is what we need - almost planed is not much good, nor is almost flat or almost a right angle between face and edge. I am currently trying to decide if its really worth continually playing with my Axminster Perform PT or sticking it on the bay and saving for something that works as it should. It seems to be almost impossible to get the infeed and outfeed tables in line with each other. I have tried everything I can think of to no avail, even down to using sheets of paper to make minute adjustments to the table angle. The adjustment and setup mechanism is simply badly designed to a budget an no amount of fettling is really going to make it perfect. I know this but dont have the money to replace it so continue to play with it in the vain hope I can make it better. The thicknesser is better but the jointer is just pants.

As to combi or seperates, depends alot on your budget and space available. Small cheap seperates are good since they can be stored away when not in use. Larger (and more expensive) seperates tend to be floor standing and cast iron so are not storeable. Combis allow space savings as you have two machines in one but usually need setting up for each operation - jointing or thicknessing.

Hand planes are an alternative, but need alot of practice and skill as well as tuning to get an acceptable finish on a board. Can also be expensive if you go for good quality planes at £250 a pop and need a low angle, a scraper, a block and a jack etc. A £20 stanley from B&Q is not an alternative to even a cheap PT.

As to buying PAR or sawn, PAR is more expensive, usually alot more. If you are using alot of timber then you will probably spend more in the long run (several years) than on milling your own. As an initial alternative to buying a PT to see if working with hardwoods is for you then PAR is not a bad option though. What a PT gives you is versatility. PAR timber tends to come in certain thicknesses and widths. If you want a half inch thick piece not an inch you have still got to dimension PAR timber. Companies will provide whatever you need, but there will be an additional cost on top of the excess for PAR to bear in mind. Most people would tend to do the following:

- But PAR hardwood and see if they plan to continue with woodworking as a hobby
- Buy a cheapish PT and be disappointed
- Save and buy a good PT if they plan to get seriously into woodwork

Some may go the handtool route at some point, but again without serious commitment this can also be a frustrating way to go.

Sadly it seems in woodwork, as with so much else in life, you have to spend a small fortune to get something that works as you think it should. while a table saw or handplane can be fettled to make it perform better, I personally find the PT to be one machine that needs to be accurately made initially in order to obtain good results, and that means spending some serious money.

Steve.

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

I never buy in PAR hard wood, I always buy in rough planks and then dimension as I want to.
Theres alot more flexibility in this and ultimately, a lot lest wastage.
I think the wastage factor is a big point to think about, it's suprising what can be made from the small offcuts, look out for DevonWoody's projects, he seems to be able to make a box from anything.
Also you can cut around knots or shakes in the timber.
I'm sure that there will be a local UKworkshopper who would help out with dimensioning your material for some tool tokens.
This way you should learn the proper way to use a rip saw, planer and thicknesser.

 

[OPJ]

Hi Jeremy.

There's a good and very recent thread here on the pro's and con's as to whether or not a planer/thicknesser is worth buying.

My personal opinion is yes. :wink: As StevieB said, once you have one in your workshop, you'll wonder how you could ever contemplate having a workshop without one!

I used to own the Perform CCNPT machine, which I assume is the same one he's talking about. This is now sold as the Axminster AWEPT106. I didn't have the same problem which Steve seems to be experiencing, but there were other issues that made me think I should've spent more.

In the end, I sold mine on eBay and went for the Axminster AW106PT, which I have been very impressed with and, for only an extra £100 over the AWEPT106/CCNPT, you get a lot more for your money. The MkII model now comes with a cast iron fence as standard. After this machine, I think you'd have to look towards the Scheppach machines, which go from £700-£800 and upwards. But, the AW106PT will run fine on a 13A supply!

If you're only working with short lengths of timber for smaller projects, it's not all that difficult to prepare you work by hand. Your best bet here would be to buy second-hand, older Stanley and Record planes of eBay. You will still need quite a collection though, as mentioned above. And then there's the issue of sharpening your plane irons as well!

 

[OPJ]

You are better off going to your local sawmill/timber yard for hardwoods, certainly. Don't even think of going to Travis Perkins or Jewsons, etc.!

 

[ByronBlack]

The best thing I can advise, is to buy a semi decent plane (a veritas bevel up jack or similar) and learn how to plane, even with a P/T you still won't get a perfect finish, you'll have a very slight 'rippled' finish which is from the action of the blades hitting the wood as it passed over the cutter block, some thicknessers can give a decent finish, but for a perfect finish you will need to either 'smooth' it with a plane or more tediously sand it.

With a few hours of practice and a D. Charlesworth video or book you'll be dimensioning, jointing and smoothing your timber by hand without the noise, expense and technical setup issues of a PT.

THEN, if you really are into the hobby and you intend to buy a lot more hardwood, do the sums. Work out the cost of the wood for your next few projects in PAR and then work it out in rough sawn - if the difference is near the cost of the a good P/T (Personally, I wouldn't spend less than £400 on a new machine) then it makes sense to get one.

I've personally, preferred the hand-tool route, then I decided to try the P/T to save time, and this was great, but then a lot of the fun of the hobby was missing, and I was spending more time fiddling with machinery, buying accessories etc..

So, due to other circumstances, I no longer have my P/T and instead use either a hand plane or router to joint and smooth my timber, I don't think I would go back to a large stationary P/T, I may consider a small portable thicknesser, but flattening and jointing in my humble opinion is more satisfying with a hand plane.

 

[StevieB]

I was indeed referring to the CCNPT. Out of interest how does the AW106PT arrive? I notice from Axminster its weight is a hefty 150kg - even more than my bulky frame :wink: Since my workshop is in the cellar of our house does it come in bits (or is it capable of being taken to bits) and walked/manhandled down a flight of stairs?

I did have my eye on a scheppach HM260ci at £700 (special offer D&M tools) but not exclusively, I could be convinced otherwise.....

Cheers,

Steve.

 

[Mr T]

I would suggest that you buy a band saw before a PT. When you buy timber from a wood yard it is not feasable to buy specific widths, so you will need to rip it long ways, rather tedious with a han saw. I would say the band saw is more versatile than the circular saw, although I am sure some would disagree.

Having cut it close to dimension you can then plane it to final size with a hand plane.

If you do get a PT make sure you know how to use it safely. A lady of my acquaintance managed to plane the ends off the fingers of BOTH hands by surfacing without the guard. Ouch.

Regarding timber purchase, most areas have smaller wood yards with good stocks of the common hardwoods. Find one that doesn't mind you picking through the stacks, and keep on good terms with them!

Good luck

 

[OPJ]

I was indeed referring to the CCNPT. Out of interest how does the AW106PT arrive? I notice from Axminster its weight is a hefty 150kg - even more than my bulky frame :wink: Since my workshop is in the cellar of our house does it come in bits (or is it capable of being taken to bits) and walked/manhandled down a flight of stairs?

Hi Steve. The AW106PT does come assembled, with the tables in place and pretty much everything bar the fence and rubber feet in place. It does required Axminster's own Heavy Goods delivery service and will arrive bolted to a wooden pallet, concealed inside a pinned-together chipboard box.

Don't know if any of Axminster's drivers would be able to help you shift it down to the basement though... :shock:

You can quite easily remove the two surfacing tables but, I don't honestly know if this would make a considerable difference or not.

Unfortunately for you, I really don't think that carrying this thing through a house and down a flight of stairs is gonna work for you. It was a big enough chore simply lfting it off the pallent and in to the mobile base I bought for it!

Maybe you'd be better off with seperates?

 

[OPJ]

I agree with what you say about the Bandsaw, Mr.T. If you're restricted by a lack of space, the bandsaw or far more versatile and won't take up nearly as much room as a decent table saw would.

There are many people on this forum who are very happy with bandsaws they have pay only £200 or £300 for. To buy a table saw in this price range is generally considered to be a waste of money; they're more trouble than they're worth. You'd have to start at the £500 mark, first. But, it all depends on what you want from your bandsaw... If you want to cut your own veneers regularly, you will need to spend more.

For cross-cutting, if you're not confident cutting by hand and cleaning up with a hand plane and shooting board, you could buy a decent mitre saw or a portable circular saw (skil saw) and make a jig for that. You're gonna need one for sheet materials, anyway.

 

[J D Architectural Joinery]

Im not a bandsaw lover as such, Especially these small ones that companies such as dewalt, perform, or jet and the likes, Im more a large wadkin or sorts. Though saying that when its been curved work I do its all arcs and elipses, so don't need a bandsaw.
So I would say for ripping especially, you want something with a riving knife, and thats where a simple rip snorter and a straight edge is far more versatile than a bandsaw. to don't have to worry about buying a bandsaw with an odd blade length, or blade wondering. And for space wise, just tuck it on on a shelf or under a bench.

 

[Jeremy]

Many thanks for the comprehensive replies everyone. It is much appreciated.

Problem with most workshop machinery is that to get something decent you need to spend a small fortune (for a hobby). A good PT will easily cost at least £700 if not alot more

Whimper! :shock:
I think this is a tad outside of my budget for the moment!
Looks like I'll have to use other methods for now :?

The best thing I can advise, is to buy a semi decent plane (a veritas bevel up jack or similar) and learn how to plane. So, due to other circumstances, I no longer have my P/T and instead use either a hand plane or router to joint and smooth my timber.

Looks like it's planing for me then.
I did wonder about using a router to get a straight edge. Is there some reason people don't do this normally? Surely it should be possible to at least get the edges straight and square with some jigs?
I found an old plane in the garage rafters when we moved. I will have to post a photo to see if it's worth restoring. I assume for leveling boards I will need a long plane though?

So I would say for ripping especially, you want something with a riving knife, and thats where a simple rip snorter and a straight edge is far more versatile than a bandsaw

I have no idea what you just said!
What the hell is a rip snorter when it's at home? :shock:

 

[MooreToolsPlease]

thats a 9" circular saw

 

[Mr T]

I admit I have a workshop full of machinery , my income would be even smaller than it is now without them! But it is interesting how resistant we are to hand preparation. For smaller projects hand preparation is an option for the hobbyist, who is not after making a living and is not in a hurry. When I took up woodworking as a hobby, 30 years ago I had no machines.

It is also possible to do hand work without spending a fortune on expensive tools such as Clifton or LN planes. A good second hand record can perform as well as and LN.

I sometimes wonder if forums like this and the hobby magazines are doing the marketing work for tool and equipment manufacturers, making people dissatisfied with what they have got and always lusting after the latest machine or the perfect LN plane. It is possible to do woodwork on a reduced budget if one accepts and works within ones budget limitations.

 

[StevieB]

Thanks Olly, I was rather afraid that was how it would come. At the risk of hijacking the thread, anyone got any recommendations for a good PT that would be feasible to get down a flight of stairs, or seperates that don't cost the earth (budget around £350 for each I guess) but give a decent performance? Portable thicknessers always look a little flimsy to me. I would rather save and get something decent than make another purchase I regret by going too cheap.

Having a look around, a good jointer would seem to be the Axminster CT1502 (or 150 Mk II depending on which blurb you read) at 80kg I could manhandle that, but for thicknessers they all look the same. I am sure they are not but as usual with the Axminster site the compare function is useless and doesn't contain complete or even identical info on the Axminster CT330 or the Dewalt DW773 for example.

Cheers,

Steve.

 

[OPJ]

You could always try a forum search, Steve, if you're waiting for the right reply.

From what I've read in the past, the Makita thicknessers are held in very high regard. Can't imagine they're too dis-similar to the DeWalt, Metabo or even the Axminster for that matter.

 

[StevieB]

Oh don't worry, extensive use of the search facility has been made Now I just need tips on persuading SWMBO, or tips on how to get a 150kg PT through the house and down to the cellar without her noticing

Steve.

 

[bob_c]

Before i had a axminster 106pt i used a dewalt dw50,that was bought in the 1980,s ,it served me well for almost 20 years. You can find them on ebay secondhand occasionally, they are decent machines and not too heavy .Better bolted down once they are in place.Theres were quite alot of them made and sold.Heres some pictures of the original brochure just out of interest.

 

[wizer]

the DW50 looks like a neat little machine, shame they don't make them like that any more. That said the DW733 gets brilliant reviews everywhere I have looked.