New workshop build, with a difference!

[Cegidfa]

Hi folks,

Yet another milestone reached, the windows are finished (outside).
Because of the construction method, a cover had to be made to fit over the flashing and also cover the window setting mastic, and the superspacers (holding the DG apart).
We opted for 50 x 50 x 2mm PVCu. As we didn’t need 50mm down the sides, we used the trusty bandsaw to rip the sides down to 20mm - cleaning up the cut edge with sandpaper.
Now, how to join it together, it being so thin? Everbuild Mitrefast to the rescue. It was recommended by a chap at Boys and Boden, who used to make stairs - they used it to glue on the nosings...I think. It is essentially, cyanoacrylate with a spray. One part is sprayed, and the glue applied to the other....it works.
The mitres were cut on the ancient Nobex..fully manually :smile: another good bit of kit.
A large square of ply was fitted with a right angle of ..more strip ply; and away we went.
Slide the two mitres into the corner for the best fit, spray the plastic, we did both edges, reckoning that it was performing a similar function to solvent weld pipe cleaner; hold for ten seconds...voila - a joint. Err, apart from the fact that we had glued the angle to the ply. Well, it was for glueing wood. As Benny Hill once said in a sketch...PLAN AHE (when writing on a wall). Next joint achieved, but this time we used the plastic offcuts under the angle ...pulled out of the glue area of course

Having completed the four frames, it was felt that a small amount of support was needed, as the joint was good, but, any flexing would break it (we did some test runs with small parts and destruction tested them, in best engineering practice). Some white mastic was put in the corners and across the mitre. Just a smidge’, as we wanted the frames to lay as close to the window as poss. It seemed to help. See finished frames below.

Not wanting to form a water trap when fixing the frames, we ran mastic (clear silicone) round the inside part of the frame (i.e. adjacent to the glass). This would both hold the frame and form a water barrier at the edges. Any future leak would be able to run down under the frame and out to the roof, with warm weather drying off the inside. Well, that’s the theory.
See below a close up, and then the whole roof.

You may have noticed that the flashing looks gold in colour - it said 'grey' on the label.....hmmmm.
In the meantime, we have been trying to insulate the roof. I say try: it took us four hours to make a copy on a small piece of insulation, of that required to fit round all the parts that comprise a Gambrel roof. I will explain with pics in a future ‘episode’.

Another stage has also been reached, the scaff. can finally come down....hurrah.

Hi Kirk,
Thanks for the link.....and thinking of me. So when your mother in law tells you that something you want to make or do won't work, you take notice...right :smile:

 

[Charlie Woody]

Well done - nice window job. Guess you will be pleased to get the scaffolding so that you can enjoy an uninterrupted view of the lovely job you have done on the roof.

Look forward to the insulation episode.

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi folks,

So, to the beginning of the insulating saga, just for Charlie Woodie .
We were going to buy our sheet insulation from a local chap who sold seconds, at around £10 per large sheet. But the downturn in housebuilding has seen the factories cut their production to the point that he had nothing when we needed it.
We had run out of storage space some time ago, so we couldn’t get it earlier, and having it outside with a tarp would be madness with our wind. If only I had a worshop.........
Thus, the insulation had to be bought at the usual price :evil: £416 :evil:

Ok, but it was 100mm thick....nowt but the best for the house....oops, workshop

What ***** wanted a Gambrel roof...ah, this one. See below some of what we have had to contend with.

We thought that it would be politic to do a dry run with an old offcut, as the stuff was like gold dust. Below is a left side, with the required cutouts.

As you can see, it isn’t just a matter of cutting nice simple rectangles, and every foot has to be cut at 30°.

Below are the left and right cutouts for the end spaces. This piece was so tricky that once shaped, it had to be cut in half vertically so that they could be fitted.

If you look at this end space you will see why.

Cutting PIR is the most awful experience, the dust is vile. Also, trying to cut 8 x 4 slabs 100mm thick accurately is no joke. I can follow a line with no problem, but vertically as well...no chance. Bring on the track saw, the vacuum will remove the dust, and cuts will be vertical....Oh no they won’t. We have had a lot of practise at using the track to accurately cut all the ply, so no problem there, we thought. Because the insulation was so thick, we had to turn it over and do both sides. We first drew a line all round the piece to be cut - and the line met. I wish I could do that in wood :? We also turned it over so the track was on the same side; did it line up, did it buggery....Every time. We came to the conclusion that it must be due to the PIR being slightly bowed. Brainwave....use the tablesaw ....curses, still not able to cut in one go. Run it through, turn end over, it doesn’t meet, but is quicker to cut. At this point I began wondering what the Americans do, so I looked it up on Fine Homebuilding...Double do’h. They use layers of 50mm that are easily cut on a tablesaw, and overlap the joins when sheeting the outside of a house. They can also buy massive knife bladed tools like a giant Stanley knife that cut through PIR like butter. Yet again we are in the dark ages compared to our cousins across the water...'Evening Kirk.
We have got one wall done, nearly up to the middle of the roof. At which point we had had enough, so we gave it a rest, and started on the lower venting for the cladding. But not before we had put 600 linear metres of featheredge in stick, in the barn, and weighed it down. We have also bought the cladding paint, all 40 litres of it :shock: I do hope that we like it .........
Late edit: you may have noticed stop blocks in the pics, the insulation was spaced off by 50mm to allow a good passage of air to pass and cool the roof....in theory.

See below a rather low light shot that has been....got at.

Now then...How does one make a lower vent without it costing three arms and a leg?
We ummed and arrrd, but the stainless mesh was beyond the pale (for those of an Éireann disposition), so we went for the plastic mesh, but how to fix it?
The first row of cladding needs a kick out of about 5mm to make it sit like the ones above.
I cut many 25mm wide strips of ply with my new favourite tool, the Axminster Japanese back saw. Once I had got used to pulling rather than pushing, it went very well, with no splinters at the cut. As the ply is a bit wobbly over 600mm distances, I opted to cut small blocks and fit two per bay. Using the new saw on 20mm thick PAR was a revelation. After I had cut about twenty, I checked the cut with a square. To my amazement, they were all at or near 90°. I couldn’t do that with a normal saw to save my life.
Once the mesh had been gripped and stretched under the battens, The strips of ply were pinned to the front of the battens and the spacers were equi-spaced. Now spend many a happy hour on my knees, on gravel, stapling the mesh to the front of the ply....Deep joy. I hope that you can see what I have done, if not, shout, and I will do a closeup.

You may have noticed that we have now fitted the white corner pieces that the cladding will butt against..ish. These were biscuit joined on the router table; a tricky job as some of them were banana shaped, once unwrapped. As the insulation is on the outside, there was nowt to fix to. So we cut many 150mm lengths of batten and fixed them to the nearest uprights.
The corners were temp. fixed and two short offcuts of cladding were fixed together to see if the corners were sticking out past the cladding as they should. It then dawned on us that we needed more battens to be able to terminate the cladding adjacent to the corners, so we ordered some more roofing battens, only to find that they were a lot thicker than the original. Luckily, the wracking strips were still on the walls and roof, so I replaced them with the new stuff....Phew. We also found that some of the other, original battens were sometimes a bit thick. I really am not built for vertical planing, but needs must, and the cladding will now sit more evenly. The corners were fitted using stainless steel annular ring nails.

Well, that was rather verbose, even by my standard. It’s amazing how some things are hard to describe in a few words.

That’s my lot for today; time to totter off to the shower, if my lallies will carry me.
Err, I hope that you are all up to speed with Polari?

Regards...****.

 

[Charlie Woody]

Hi ****

Wow that insulation fitting is complicated. Good job it's an innovative genius like you not an ***** like me that is doing it!

Should be nice an toasty in there using 100mm insulation.

It's all looking very nice. I think when it's finished you will have one of the smartest looking workshops I have seen.

 

[WoodnDesign]

And I was begining to wonder what had happened, as hadn't seen any action, now that's a smart job ... =D> ..

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for that. Err, the innovative genius here is Diane, I have the ‘spatial awareness’ of a rocking horse :smile:

Hello WoodnDesign,

Welcome to the fold, and thanks for the support. Strewth, you’re a hard taskmaster :wink:


I have to issue a major retraction regarding Superdec.

Having had ‘trouble’ with the first tin being like knats pee, and then the same with the second tin when ‘trying’ to coat the roof windows, I thought to use it as a base coat for the door surrounds. We have used Dulux Weathershield Aquatech (which is a similar product) on the corner pieces, and very good it is....and available locally (with the guarantee of being able to take it back if there are any problems - as it is a Dulux trade centre).
As soon as I started stirring the Superdec, I knew it had somehow changed; there was a lot more resistance. It went on as it should have done and covered well?
We always give paint a jolly good stir - every time, so what has changed, apart from the fact that it is cooler at the moment, I have no idea. Does anyone have any thoughts?

We nearly made what my old Chief Engineer used to refer to refer to as a “BDF”, that is, a basic design fault. We have made some chunky door frame edges, so that the doors could be mounted outboard, and swing out of the way (remember, the insulation is on the outside). We had lost sight of the fact that there would have been an almighty gap at the bottom, as the brickwork is inboard...oops This means that the doors will have to be mounted on the carcase (inboard) and will only be able to open straight out, and if the wind catches them, they will be slammed against the edging...a massive lever that will do damage. I need to watch closely, more Wallander, as their doors open outwards...ok, any excuse.
OK. tea break over, back on my head........

Regards...****.

 

[Halo Jones]

We had lost sight of the fact that there would have been an almighty gap at the bottom, as the brickwork is inboard...oops

I just made the same mistake when making the trifold doors for our workshop and the bottom of the doors will largely be over nothing. Luckily there will be a 5 mm overlap with the workshop base so I can still draft proof it but the security bolts I bought will enter fresh air!! (At least I realised my mistake before fitting them though) I will just have to buy some bolts that secure to the inside of the door rather than inserted into the frame.

Your shop is starting to look really really nice. When can I move in??!!

 

[kirkpoore1]

Hi folks,

So, to the beginning of the insulating saga, just for Charlie Woodie ....
At this point I began wondering what the Americans do, so I looked it up on Fine Homebuilding...Double do’h. They use layers of 50mm that are easily cut on a tablesaw, and overlap the joins when sheeting the outside of a house. They can also buy massive knife bladed tools like a giant Stanley knife that cut through PIR like butter. Yet again we are in the dark ages compared to our cousins across the water...'Evening Kirk.
...
That’s my lot for today; time to totter off to the shower, if my lallies will carry me.
Err, I hope that you are all up to speed with Polari?

Regards...****.

****, I used a boning knife to cut the insulation board for my shop:

Of course, I didn't have 4" thick board to contend with, either. In your case, if all (or the vast majority) of the openings need the same kind of cut, I'd put together some kind of jig to make sure they all come out the same.

Kirk
just back from vacation with a late reply...

 

[JanneKi]

We install that kind of insulation boards (you refered to them as PIR - we call them polyurethane boards - or urtsalevy in slang) - we cut them only "approximately" there and then glue them in with expanding polyurethane foam. This will glue them in place and also take care of any small deviations etc. in the shapes, as the foam expands to fill in. You are even supposed to do the pieces around 1 centimeter smaller than the opening so that you have room for the foam.

There's a video + pictures avaible here:

http://www.spu.fi/eristeet_asennus_anselmi_wilhelmi

 

[bosshogg]

We install that kind of insulation boards (you refered to them as PIR - we call them polyurethane boards - or urtsalevy in slang) - we cut them only "approximately" there and then glue them in with expanding polyurethane foam. This will glue them in place and also take care of any small deviations etc. in the shapes, as the foam expands to fill in. You are even supposed to do the pieces around 1 centimeter smaller than the opening so that you have room for the foam.

There's a video + pictures avaible here:

http://www.spu.fi/eristeet_asennus_anselmi_wilhelmi

+1 to J's comments, also buy a good foam gun (I have only ever used the Hilti one, but I know there are others available, a quick Google will show these) otherwise the standard cans and trigger will pump the foam at full pressure, whereas small holes (and the inexperienced) only require light pressure and slow foam release...bosshogg

You can't help a man who doesn't tell you what he wants (hammer)

 

[Dibs-h]

+1 to J's comments, also buy a good foam gun (I have only ever used the Hilti one, but I know there are others available, a quick Google will show these) otherwise the standard cans and trigger will pump the foam at full pressure, whereas small holes (and the inexperienced) only require light pressure and slow foam release...bosshogg

You can't help a man who doesn't tell you what he wants (hammer)

Most builder merchants do a gun for < £20 and gun grade foam for < £5. Just remember to buy a couple of cans of cleaner. You can keep a can attached to the gun for ages (I mean a fair few months) as long as you remember to squirt a bit of cleaner on the end when you finish & won't be using it again at least for an hr, so the foam doesn't build up. Also some down the clear plastic extension tubes, should you use one.

The can of cleaner can either screw onto the gun in place of the foam can - or they have a little "top" which allows you to almost use it as a regular aerosol. I say almost because it won't squirt sideways - but straight upwards. You'll see when you see one.


HIH

Dibs

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi folks,

I’m afraid that not a lot has changed, as I have been a little under the weather for the last week. But I have managed a few small things related to the window and door surrounds, in readiness for the ‘clabbord’ painting and fixing marathon.

Hello Kirk,
Thanks for the idea, but I find that anything thicker than a Stanley knife blade to be a pain, as they tend to jam as the PIR closes round them. As to a jig, we made a card pattern that we laid on and marked round to give the cut out shapes.

Hello JanneKi,
We debated whether to cut the boards straight and fill with foam, but as the ‘incursions’ are 48mm thick each side, we would have ended up with two 48mm by 100mm by 1200mm slots to fill in each bay. The cost would have been astronomical. As I said before, ‘what ***** decided on a Gambrel roof’ :smile:

The PIR stands for polyisocyanurate i.e Celotex (as a brand name) by the way.

Hello Boss and Dibs,
I hate to be a smart ars...alec, but I do have a good gun and the solvent cleaner, and yes we always buy the low expansion foam as well :smile: We first bought the gun and low foam to stick the 70mm Celotex to the bathroom walls a few years back. I winced at the price of the gun at the time, but every time I use it I’m glad I stumped up. Having used the ordinary cans of foam before, the control was a revelation.

So, thanks to all three of you gents for the helpful info. It will possibly help someone else about to embark on a similar project now or in the future, who reads this ‘blog’.

There has got to be a time when I am stumped and in need of some help, but I am the sort of soul who researches to death any project that we embark upon, so I am usually well prepared, in theory; the practical skill is another matter :shock:

Evening all........****.

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi folks,

Thanks for the idea, but I find that anything thicker than a Stanley knife blade to be a pain, as they tend to jam as the PIR closes round them. As to a jig, we made a card pattern that we laid on and marked round to give the cut out shapes.

****.

Bread knife - believe me it works! :lol:

 

[Charlie Woody]

Hi ****

Sorry to hear that you have been feeling unwell. I look forward to hearing of a speedy and full recovery very soon.

Charlie

 

[goldeneyedmonkey]

Keep up the good work ****. I always enjoy tuning into your build Get better soon mate. _Dan

 

[Cegidfa]

A few days back, my son Stefan and twelve of his friends cycled from London to Paris (sans la Manche naturellment) in aid of the Bristol based charity AWAMU. They support children in Kampala, Uganda, who have HIV/Aids, in their schooling. They managed to raise £11,000. I just had to tell someone =D>

Normal service will now resume!


Oops, sorry Halo, I forgot about your request to move in.
Our rates are very cheap, but that’s because we will rope you in on all the activities that we get up to. So I hope that you are a big strong boy; the one thing that we lack is muscle :smile:
You will however, have to share with our ‘children’ as they fancy sleeping in it too :shock:
Why is it, that no matter how hard we try to plan, we can miss the most blindingly obvious things sometimes?

Hi Dibs,
I think that a different dynamic takes effect once the jump is made from 50 to 100mm thickness. We have tried both a serrated bread knife and the wavy edged ones (can’t think of the name) to no avail. I can get the knife in about 50mm and then it becomes a scene from ‘Morte d’Arthur’ and my name is not Arthur Pendragon...but the knife definitely becomes Excalibur :shock:
We have decided that when we cut the insulation for the upper bout, we will use the tablesaw at max height and finish off with the other Japanese saw that doesn’t have a ‘back’. As the blade is so thin and with virtually no kerf, the dust is greatly reduced.
It’s a good job that you are a Yorkshireman, and therefore made of stern stuff, as I keep slapping down all your suggestions :smile:
Personally, I am half caste, as my mother is from Grimethorpe in Sheffield, but my dad was from Buckinghamshire :shock:

Hello Charlie and Dan,
Thanks for the kind wishes...I feel better already :smile:
Dan, I try never, to give in to pride (before the fall) but the fact that you enjoy tuning into my ramblings, makes me feel really chuffed that I can write something that people can enjoy.....given that I failed my English O levels spectacularly....along with maths,science ....
Ho hum, that’s life.

Must away and do a little bit...I can't stand sitting around. You will never see me on a hot beach, roasting in the sun :smile:

Regards...****.

 

[Dibs-h]

Hi Dibs,
I think that a different dynamic takes effect once the jump is made from 50 to 100mm thickness. We have tried both a serrated bread knife and the wavy edged ones (can’t think of the name) to no avail. I can get the knife in about 50mm and then it becomes a scene from ‘Morte d’Arthur’ and my name is not Arthur Pendragon...but the knife definitely becomes Excalibur :shock:
We have decided that when we cut the insulation for the upper bout, we will use the tablesaw at max height and finish off with the other Japanese saw that doesn’t have a ‘back’. As the blade is so thin and with virtually no kerf, the dust is greatly reduced.
It’s a good job that you are a Yorkshireman, and therefore made of stern stuff, as I keep slapping down all your suggestions :smile:
Personally, I am half caste, as my mother is from Grimethorpe in Sheffield, but my dad was from Buckinghamshire :shock:

Come to think of it - the 25mm/50mm stuff I've cut over the years - a breadknife has worked fine, but when fitting the 100mm that I fitted in the roof - I used a regular handsaw. A 1st fix one IIRC - this one,

http://www.toolmonkey.co.uk/product/SAn ... prodID=772

Creates a bit of dust but no real issues.

Fitting it isn't the most pleasurable of things - that's for sure! :mrgreen:

Dibs

 

[imageel]

I concur with **** - I used 800 mm Celotex in my shed and it was a 'mare to cut.
I tried using a filleting knife as suggested by a previous poster, but making long cuts it was difficult to keep straight, and maybe I'm weak, but trying to haul it through that thickness of foam took some effort...
I ended up using an Irwin floorboard saw for most cuts, which was equally difficult to keep straight in 2 planes over a long cut.
I must admit I will attempt most things around the house, but what with the dust and the fibre glass re-inforcment whose splinters riddled my hands, I would gladly pay someone else to cut and install it if I ever use it again!
Cheers
Ed

 

[Cegidfa]

Hi folks,

It’s been a while, but we have had a visit from the grandchildren, so work stopped play, err, should that be the other way [-X

We had been working on the doorway and window linings, but to our chagrin, we found that the kick outs that hold the soffits were not as good as we thought, so we now have wavy soffits.
I have fitted a stand out frame round the windows, so that the cladding has something to butt up to. Whilst fitting the bottom bits, they were fixed at the side first by drilling through the verticals and screwing through. To stop breakout, I held a block of wood on the ‘out’ side. Having done three with no mishap, the last drilling went through at a rate of knots - through the block and into me. Can I say that a 4mm spur bit is not something one wants in a finger tip :evil: :evil: Two weeks later, I still have a raised circle inscribed with a black dot in the middle.

At this point, I decided to divert to cladding the back, as the front didn’t have fond memories :smile:
We set to and made a pair of crosses, but fear not, they will be used upside down to hold the cladding in the correct elevation for nailing. I also added an extension to the bottom so that it could be used to line up with the last fixing, to aid keeping the nails in line. There was also a mark, 35mm up from the bottom of the ‘tee’ so that the nail hole could be marked......Anal...moi?
We also used some angled plastic left over from the window covers, as a spacer at the edges. Having now used this system, a further mod is needed at the support end of the ‘cross.’ As it has been rather windy lately :shock: a stepped piece is needed at the top to hold the cladding back. I don’t have enough hands to hold the plastic spacer, the cross, and a hammer and nail, however, we now pre fit the two ‘outside edge’ nails, so that is one thing less. We were starting to look like a scene from the black and white comedy film with no sound, called ‘A home of your own’ with Peter Butterworth as a short sighted carpenter and Bernard Cribbins, as a mason who couldn’t spell :shock: does anyone remember it? Very funny. It was followed by ‘The plank’ with Eric Sykes I think.

The cladding went very well, and we had left a fair gap at the centre join, intending to fit a bit of 50 x 25 as a cover. Err....this can only be done with shiplap as the thickness of the featheredge leaves too large a gap. However, we have a cunning plan to get over it...Watch this space. See below the progress to date.

Regards....****.

 

[kirkpoore1]

The clapboards look pretty nice, ****.

Where's you're round window? Are you dropping it?

Kirk