New Veritas Tool Steel - PM-V11

[matthewwh]

In fairness A2 was always marketed with the advice to grind it at 30 degrees, it has also now had 10 years of 'field testing' by thousands of people which is incredibly difficult to simulate before taking the decision to use it.

I guess V11 will take a while to earn its spurs too, but you can't knock the effort Lee Valley have gone to in terms of testing before bringing it to market.

Do you recommend a particular honing regime Rob?

 

[Doug B]

It would kinda be a shame to ignore the benefits new processes and materials bring....

Indeed it would Rob, & I will follow this new steel with interest.

In fairness A2 was always marketed with the advice to grind it at 30 degrees, it has also now had 10 years of 'field testing' by thousands of people which is incredibly difficult to simulate before taking the decision to use it.

Which goes back to the point I was making, to test something thoroughly takes time.

 

[Mr Ed]

(Snip) it will be interesting if this latest "must have" is 30% better than what we already have. For me I think I`ll wait & see, as the saying goes, time will tell.

Cheers.

Hi -

Much as I'd like to be in the same marketing position as Apple is (customers virtually begging for continual upgrades) - there's absolutely no reason to change anything that works for you in the hand tool world. In fact, I'd submit it's much the opposite - antiques seem to become more attractive as skills develop.

We improve products to sell to people that don't have anything (and so that we'll be here for a few more decades).

It would kinda be a shame to ignore the benefits new processes and materials bring....

Cheers -

Rob

I think you have a realistic and responsible view there Rob, namely that

a) There is no need to change tools that perform as you want them to
b) Lots of people find old tools to be the best option
c) Tool manufacturers are bound to introduce improvements in technology into their ranges as they come available, but this is just incrementing the performance onwards, its not necessarily intended that people would achieve Nirvana by upgrading from what they already have.

Ed

 

[Modernist]

In fairness A2 was always marketed with the advice to grind it at 30 degrees, it has also now had 10 years of 'field testing' by thousands of people which is incredibly difficult to simulate before taking the decision to use it.

No it wasn't - hence the problem

 

[jimi43]

It is refreshing in this day and age to hear someone from a major company speak so frankly about the real current position with honesty and no market hype. =D>

.....there's absolutely no reason to change anything that works for you in the hand tool world. In fact, I'd submit it's much the opposite - antiques seem to become more attractive as skills develop.

We improve products to sell to people that don't have anything (and so that we'll be here for a few more decades).

We have never been in a better position as users of tools where we have a wide choice from fine vintage gems via Internet search and auction sites, modern quality tools using traditional methods such as Clifton, Ashley Iles and many bespoke manufacturers to the new innovations we find in LV, LN and an increasing number from around the world.

In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong with owning and admiring a tool just for the engineering excellence or aesthetic value.....even the pride of owning it....or (dare I say)...collecting such masterpieces.

Many collectors have garages full of vintage cars where the performance today just about matches a family run-around...these sit alongside modern models...the performance of which matches jet fighters....why? Because they can afford to and want to....and...have every right to!

I will certainly get some tools made from "snake oil" some time soon...but I won't be chucking out me Sorbys or Wards to make room for them!

Would appreciate some action shots though Rob (Snr. Woodbloke)....once the article's out! :wink:

Jim

 

[bugbear]

I think the problems with A2 were largely ones of marketing. It was marketed as the best thing since sliced bread when it wasn't. Had the manufacturers explained that it would hold an edge longer than 01 but needed to be honed at steeper angles, then a lot of the "problems" could have been avoided. They of course tell us that now and most offer a choice of A2 or 01. It's just a pity that they couldn't have been a bit more up-front in the first place.

Once again I agree Paul, but the same marketing message was paraded by the woodworking press who also bought into A2. They were supposed to have tested it thoroughly & came out with the same message that the marketing men were saying.

No doubt the same press will be equally enthusiastic to hype up their advertisers latest "best thing since sliced bread".

Though at 30% more for the PM-V11 than standard O1 blades, it will be interesting if this latest "must have" is 30% better than what we already have. For me I think I`ll wait & see, as the saying goes, time will tell.

Cheers.

Why is it only the bench woodworkers who get confused and/or hyped?

Turners have been choosing, using and benefitting from modern steels for many years, without apparent difficulty.

BugBear

 

[Rob Lee]

(snip)
Do you recommend a particular honing regime Rob?

Hi Matthew -

I personally sharpen just about everything on 800x, 4000x waterstones, followed by green honing compound, and this will work just fine on PM-V11.

PM-V11 should be compatible with most people's current shapening regimen, if they are already sharpening well hardened tool steels.

Cheers -

Rob

 

[Modernist]

Why is it only the bench woodworkers who get confused and/or hyped?

Turners have been choosing, using and benefitting from modern steels for many years, without apparent difficulty.

BugBear

Not quite the same. Turners mainly use bench grinders for sharpening so there is less effort involved and they mainly moved to HSS which is very forgiving of bad grinding technique

 

[Vormulac]

It is refreshing in this day and age to hear someone from a major company speak so frankly about the real current position with honesty and no market hype. =D>

Jim

Rob has always been forthcoming about LV's activity and approachable about related matters on here, and I feel it lends massive credibility to the company.

V.

 

[Andrea]

Keep in mind that our scales are relative, and not absolute. Our testing was designed to aid in making a selection... not to absolutely quantify differences.

Hi Robin and many tanks for your continued willingness to discuss on forums.

I understand that for you, a relative a ranking is more useful than an absolute one (and it results also more marketing impressive, sorry), but for a potential customer who have to decide which steel to buy (price/performance), an absolute ranking would be more useful.

Anyway.
I had always thought that wear resistance is inversely proportional to the ease of sharpening.
The more a steel is resistant to wear, the more it is difficult to sharpen.
Instead, your tests show that A2 wear much more easily then PM-V11 (score 1.5 vs 9) but, even if only slightly, it is more difficult to sharpen (score 6 vs. 6.5).
I'm not able to understand how it is possible. Could you help me?

 

[woodbloke]

Would some moderator kindly like to me explain why the title to MY thread has been altered? :evil: :evil: ...'cos I certainly didn't do it. Does it transgress any forum rules? Probably not, so why was it altered without consultation? - Rob...awaiting an answer

Edit - as no answer has been forthcoming, I've changed it back! (hammer) - Rob

 

[woodbloke]

Right chaps, to put you out of your misery :lol: if you're going to Pete Sefton's Bash tomorrow, you can have a little play (hammer) but don't expect the blade to be left in the plane on the bench with squillions of people around...it'll be in it's holder in my pocket and you'll have to ask :wink: - Rob

 

[Noel]

I've tidied this thread up for the 2nd time. Bear in mind that threads are not "owned" by anybody and if a moderator feels that a thread or a post needs editing, for whatever reason (complaints, breaching of rules etc) then that will happen and it's best not to try and undermine such decisions.
Any problems with this please take it to the appropriate board, do not discuss such matters on this thread.

 

[custard]

Rob has always been forthcoming about LV's activity and approachable about related matters on here, and I feel it lends massive credibility to the company.

V.

+1

Of course there's a commercial interest at stake; but it still takes conviction, civility, and not a small amount of courage to be as open as Rob.

=D> =D> =D>

 

[Rob Lee]

Keep in mind that our scales are relative, and not absolute. Our testing was designed to aid in making a selection... not to absolutely quantify differences.

Hi Robin and many tanks for your continued willingness to discuss on forums.

I understand that for you, a relative a ranking is more useful than an absolute one (and it results also more marketing impressive, sorry), but for a potential customer who have to decide which steel to buy (price/performance), an absolute ranking would be more useful.

Anyway.
I had always thought that wear resistance is inversely proportional to the ease of sharpening.
The more a steel is resistant to wear, the more it is difficult to sharpen.
Instead, your tests show that A2 wear much more easily then PM-V11 (score 1.5 vs 9) but, even if only slightly, it is more difficult to sharpen (score 6 vs. 6.5).
I'm not able to understand how it is possible. Could you help me?

Hi Andrea,

If we can come up with a real world test, that reflects real world use, then we can give an absolute ranking....but that will take a lot more time - perhaps even years, for the steels we tested. I should note that we are still testing steels to be able to do just that...

The wear/sharpening relation does not have to be strictly proportional, as failure modes differ. If an edge fails by chipping, it can still be very difficult to abrade, yet dulls quickly. Again - we evaluated failure modes as well (we'll have more on that later). All I can right now is that both our experimental results and our practical experience support what we've said.

As we develop more data we'll share it...but we have to be careful about making claims we can't support. Right now - everything we've said is completely supportable, if somewhat generic....

Cheers -

Rob
(off for a long weekend...)

 

[woodbloke]

If you look at Rob's website about PM-V11, you'll see that the sharpening issue was one that was paramount in the development of this new material. I won't discuss my experiences of sharpening PM-V11 on an open forum, but if anyone's going to Pete Sefton's Bash tomorrow I'm very happy to natter about it there - Rob

 

[János]

Hello,

I have read this thread and the web page about the new steel with interest. Unfortunately it said nothing about the actual metallurgy of the steel. Judged from its performance it must be one of the newer cold work tool steels, like Vanadis 4 extra http://www.bucorp.com/files/Uddeholm_Va ... 011_e6.pdf
The only serious drawback of these modern steels (in my opinion) is the complicated method of heath treatment they require. The difficulty of heath treatment renders these tool steels unavailable/unsuitable to DIY toolmakers or craftsman toolsmiths.

Have a nice day,

János

 

[CHJ]

The only serious drawback of these modern steels (in my opinion) is the complicated method of heath treatment they require. The difficulty of heath treatment renders these tool steels unavailable/unsuitable to DIY toolmakers or craftsman toolsmiths.

One other factor is that most New formulations require a very strict and well controlled heat treatment regime.
A regime too easily not met when trying to produce components at lowest cost to meet a limited market.
I have had experience of treating exotics in vacuum and Argon gas furnaces and the like for the aircraft industry (I had 2.5 MW of furnaces in use) and it needs a very tight QA procedure to be anything like happy that you had achieved the final specification.

Down to a more basic level when I did a review of a wet grinder I found a considerable difference in HSS hardness, supposedly to the same specification and similar Rockwell, but from different suppliers. (just gauged by the speed of metal removal, nothing scientific.) and the ability to keep an edge is quite evident in use between different so called standard HSS tools.

 

[matthewwh]

It's good!

 

[Mr Ed]

I planed a couple of dozen strokes with Rob's blade in a LA jack on Saturday and it was fine. By that I mean it felt basically the same as my own LA jack with an A2 blade in it, which is exactly what I would expect. These kind of short term experiences don't tell us a great deal about the blades performance, since I imagine we could sharpen any bit of steel to plane nicely in the short term*. I'm not saying that to criticise the blade, merely that to understand the steel's qualities will take weeks, if not months, of use to properly appraise the benefits. I think Rob Lee has done this so he's obviously satisfied himself that there is a benefit in the new steel, but for the rest of us we need to go through the process.

I think the point Doug was making earlier in this thread is entirely valid, that the hype with A2 overtook the user demonstrated data and that led to a mismatch between the promised characteristics and reality. There's nothing wrong with A2, you just have to know how to best exploit it's properties (higher angle honing basically) before you can really proclaim it to be the New New Thing**. I will get either a plane blade or a chisel in the new steel and start trying it out to form my own opinion over the coming months. In my view statements of "it's good" are not really helpful at this stage as it's such early days, I would rather stick to my "it's fine, but let's wait and see".

Ed

*OK, maybe not ANY steel, but you know what I mean...

** The New New Thing, by Michael Lewis - a very interesting book about the internet revolution and Jim Clark's never ending search for the next thing (nothing to do with woodwork)