New Spear & Jackson tenon saw
- Thread starter Karl
- Start date
Help Support UKworkshop.co.uk:
woodbloke
Established Member
That looks like the traditional sort of S&J handle which I find uncomfortable. When I was teaching yonks ago now I had a 'shop full of saws like that and always kept my own 'special' with an open tote handle for stuff that I made - Rob
Thanks Rob.
I did have a hold of it and, to my mind, it felt OK. Obviously didn't get a chance to do any cutting with it.
I suppose that if the handle was uncomfortable in use I could always make a new one - open, like you say.
Cheers
Karl
I did have a hold of it and, to my mind, it felt OK. Obviously didn't get a chance to do any cutting with it.
I suppose that if the handle was uncomfortable in use I could always make a new one - open, like you say.
Cheers
Karl
Paul Chapman
Established Member
Hi Karl,
I've found Spear &Jackson saws rather mixed. About 30 years ago I bought an S&J Professional and it performed really well (despite the handle :lol: ) until I lent it to my brother and he wrecked it on some plywood :evil: In more recent times I bought an S&J Workhorse (bottom of the range) which was awful - wouldn't cut anything. However, I had a go at sharpening it myself and changed the teeth from cross-cut to rip and it works quite well now.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
I've found Spear &Jackson saws rather mixed. About 30 years ago I bought an S&J Professional and it performed really well (despite the handle :lol: ) until I lent it to my brother and he wrecked it on some plywood :evil: In more recent times I bought an S&J Workhorse (bottom of the range) which was awful - wouldn't cut anything. However, I had a go at sharpening it myself and changed the teeth from cross-cut to rip and it works quite well now.
Cheers :wink:
Paul
woodbloke
Established Member
Hi Karl - the actual blade is quite good, it's just the handle pattern that I couldn't get on with, so I reckon if you did get hold of one, a new handle would be an interesting project to do - RobKarl":24pgzicp said:
Thanks Paul & Rob.
Paul - the saw i'm looking at is the S&J Professional. Obviously 30 years is a long time, so don't know how the quality will compare to yours.
I'm gonna take a punt on it. The blade seemed really nice, and there was a fair amount of weight in the saw itself. And if I don't get on with the handle, i'll make a new one.
I'll report my findings later on today.
Cheers
Karl
Paul - the saw i'm looking at is the S&J Professional. Obviously 30 years is a long time, so don't know how the quality will compare to yours.
I'm gonna take a punt on it. The blade seemed really nice, and there was a fair amount of weight in the saw itself. And if I don't get on with the handle, i'll make a new one.
I'll report my findings later on today.
Cheers
Karl
I doubt if it's very much different from this one:
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=32339
I'd guess it's the same blade and same brass back. Perhaps it has been either cross cut or rip sharpened as opposed to the universal. If the Pro saw is under £30 then I would say it's worth it, otherwise get the model with the Beech handle. In fact just get the Beech handled version - that looks like it is just stained Beech which is what my modern Pro S&J panel saw was.
I can't really see anything wrong with the actual blade or the nice weighty brass back. That leaves the clunky handle and the way it's been sharpened - both of which can be worked on. It's going to have to be resharpened at some point in it's life anyway.
If the kerf is a little agressive from new (they usually are) then just lightly stone each side.
https://www.ukworkshop.co.uk/forums/view ... hp?t=32339
I'd guess it's the same blade and same brass back. Perhaps it has been either cross cut or rip sharpened as opposed to the universal. If the Pro saw is under £30 then I would say it's worth it, otherwise get the model with the Beech handle. In fact just get the Beech handled version - that looks like it is just stained Beech which is what my modern Pro S&J panel saw was.
I can't really see anything wrong with the actual blade or the nice weighty brass back. That leaves the clunky handle and the way it's been sharpened - both of which can be worked on. It's going to have to be resharpened at some point in it's life anyway.
If the kerf is a little agressive from new (they usually are) then just lightly stone each side.
Hi Karl,
there're rumors that the modern steel is a bit softer than the 1095 the high class saw maker take. But that doesn't matter much to a woodworker who sharpens saws himself. And that's what you need to be, because these saws are way overset and dull. :wink:
Do you know, if the tote is fixed with screws or with rivets? Screws a obvious better, because you can make your own tot easily.
I like these saws as "stock" to build new saws. 30 GBP is cheap for the brass back only.
Cheers
Pedder
there're rumors that the modern steel is a bit softer than the 1095 the high class saw maker take. But that doesn't matter much to a woodworker who sharpens saws himself. And that's what you need to be, because these saws are way overset and dull. :wink:
Do you know, if the tote is fixed with screws or with rivets? Screws a obvious better, because you can make your own tot easily.
I like these saws as "stock" to build new saws. 30 GBP is cheap for the brass back only.
Cheers
Pedder
Right - initial observations - pretty chuffed really. The handle doesn't feel uncomfortable in use (Pedder - it has the screw fixings so could be replaced if I ever felt the need). The blade is nice and sharp too.
However......
There is far too much set. The kerf is currently between 1.2 and 1.25mm (measured at various points along the length of the blade). The blade is 0.7mm thick, meaning that the set is approx .25mm on each side.
Looking at the spec on the LN tenon saws, I see that they come with .1mm set on each side. Is the easiest way to remove this excess set to place a piece of card (or something .1mm thick) on the blade with the teeth exposed and run the diamond stone over it? I think that's how you do it, but i'm a bit new to this.
Cheers
Karl
However......
There is far too much set. The kerf is currently between 1.2 and 1.25mm (measured at various points along the length of the blade). The blade is 0.7mm thick, meaning that the set is approx .25mm on each side.
Looking at the spec on the LN tenon saws, I see that they come with .1mm set on each side. Is the easiest way to remove this excess set to place a piece of card (or something .1mm thick) on the blade with the teeth exposed and run the diamond stone over it? I think that's how you do it, but i'm a bit new to this.
Cheers
Karl
Hi Karl,
usually I remove set by filing the teeth down to their half.
But that's when I get my old ladies from ebay.uk. They are dull usually.
Removing set your way means to take away half of the cutting edge of each tooth. I would try it an refile the teeth. If you're not satisfied with the result, you can refile the teeth later.
Cheers
Pedder
Btw: How much was it?
usually I remove set by filing the teeth down to their half.
But that's when I get my old ladies from ebay.uk. They are dull usually.
Removing set your way means to take away half of the cutting edge of each tooth. I would try it an refile the teeth. If you're not satisfied with the result, you can refile the teeth later.
Cheers
Pedder
Btw: How much was it?
dunbarhamlin
Established Member
Suspect my fave rip saw may have been treated that way Karl - the teeth one side only are decidely tapered in thickness - but since it still works well, I didn't feel like wasting 3/8" or so of steel in one fell swoop, so it'll just improve over the coming years.
(Alternatively, they may have been very enthusiastically hammer set, I suppose)
(Alternatively, they may have been very enthusiastically hammer set, I suppose)
pedder":7ty2sp0f said:Hi Karl,
usually I remove set by filing the teeth down to their half.
But that's when I get my old ladies from ebay.uk. They are dull usually.
Removing set your way means to take away half of the cutting edge of each tooth. I would try it an refile the teeth. If you're not satisfied with the result, you can refile the teeth later.
Cheers
Pedder
Btw: How much was it?
Hi Pedder
The saw was £40. Not a bad price I thought, and tax deductible too .....
When you say "re-file the teeth" - do you mean "topping" (I believe that is the term) the teeth with a file, then individually re-cutting each tooth? That seems a hell of a lot of work.
The method I describes means losing 0.15mm from each tooth. As the stock is .7mm thick, this means that the steel at the cutting edge will be reduced to .55mm. Or am I missing something?
Cheers
Karl
That's a lot to take off just by stoning but I think I'd rather do that than resharpen the saw - unless of course you are a dab hand at saw sharpening. Try stoning each side a little and do some test cuts.
The S&J that I bought is sharp and like yours is agressive in the kerf. I haven't tried to remove any of the set because it's not really necessary for the use I put it to.
Apparently yours also has the universal sharpening. When it comes to having it resharpened opt for one or the other - that will up the performance by a significant margin. Of course if you are happy with the way it is cutting at the moment then you could stay with the universal.
Oh and if you ever find that elusive long lost saw doctor who does wonders with a saw file please do let everyone know.
The S&J that I bought is sharp and like yours is agressive in the kerf. I haven't tried to remove any of the set because it's not really necessary for the use I put it to.
Apparently yours also has the universal sharpening. When it comes to having it resharpened opt for one or the other - that will up the performance by a significant margin. Of course if you are happy with the way it is cutting at the moment then you could stay with the universal.
Oh and if you ever find that elusive long lost saw doctor who does wonders with a saw file please do let everyone know.
maltrout512
Established Member
Just to but in here,
I'll say one thing, you didn't buy an LN saw. So If I were you I would put your new saw to work and bed it in. It is a tenon saw. You never know it might get to like you. It may then say to you that I may not be an LN but I sure do cut pretty close.
I'll say one thing, you didn't buy an LN saw. So If I were you I would put your new saw to work and bed it in. It is a tenon saw. You never know it might get to like you. It may then say to you that I may not be an LN but I sure do cut pretty close.
Mignal - I am going to experiment with stoning the teeth later on today, so will let you know how I get on.
Mal - point taken about the LN saws. I used the LN as a reference for the amount of set used by them on their saws. I have a LN dovetail saw which cuts beautifully, and leaves a very fine saw kerf.
A general point about re-sharpening. I read somewhere that the crosscut tooth configuration was originally designed solely for cutting the fibres of wet timbers. If working in dry hardwood, there is no need for crosscut and all saws should be sharpened as rip tooth configuration.
Any comments?????
Cheers
Karl
Mal - point taken about the LN saws. I used the LN as a reference for the amount of set used by them on their saws. I have a LN dovetail saw which cuts beautifully, and leaves a very fine saw kerf.
A general point about re-sharpening. I read somewhere that the crosscut tooth configuration was originally designed solely for cutting the fibres of wet timbers. If working in dry hardwood, there is no need for crosscut and all saws should be sharpened as rip tooth configuration.
Any comments?????
Cheers
Karl
Karl":34e2ohnn said:
No, I meant to file away only the top halft of the teeth.
Karl":34e2ohnn said:
It is 0.7mm? OK, than your way will propably work. I thought it should be onl 0.5mm. I think it's worth a try. I would promise to resharpen your saw if you're unhappy with the results, but it would cost the price of the saw shipping it to me and back to you.
Karl":34e2ohnn said:
Hmm. If we talk about 18tpi and higher the influence of fleam to the sawing results becomes smaller. And the difference is bigger in soft than in hard woods. But I can not cut a clean tenon shoulder with a 14tpi rip saw.
Cheers Pedder
bugbear
Established Member
Karl":26vjoe76 said:
Yeah - that entire quote contradicts every reference on sharpening I know of, including classic books, and rather a lot of handsaw makers pamphlets!
BugBear
bugbear":bwh2dtt6 said:
You've obviously not read Tage Frid's book then BB. I found the elusive author (to whom I referred) this weekend.
He performs an experiment using a bow saw and a panel saw cutting both with and across the grain. In both types of cut using both saws, the rip tooth configuration was faster.
Cheers
Karl
bugbear
Established Member
Karl":t0kvd4vs said:
What's the justification for the claim that crosscut was originally designed for wet timber? I've read (most of) the old books, and that claim is absent.
You should also know that Tage Frid's opinions on saw sharpening are (ahem) sometimes disputed. There no doubting his woodworking skill, but he's in such a minority here, both against historical records (including Disston and S&J), and present expert saw makers, that I cannot accept the sweeping claim that crosscut filing is needless without A LOT of evidence.
In particular the classic references, from the ages when much work was done with handsaws (Holly, Hodgson, Grimshaw) all describe cross cut filing (with fleam) in detail. If this was "wrong" surely someone would have noticed!
BugBear
