New Router Plane

[D_W]

Some make powered routers deliver, but that is a topic in itself.

Ew mac.

As a guitar builder sometimes, I quickly learned that whatever stew mac has now is not necessarily going to be like what stew mac had 25 years ago, and I understand the business was sold by the original family who ran it - probably to a well capitalized follow-up buyer.

Translates to a whole lot of stuff extremely high priced or switched out from japanese made to chinese made, but you can go shop outside of Ew Mac and find the original japanese products elsewhere cheaper than the chinese replacements. Sometimes the chinese stuff is almost as good, sometimes it's not close.

And no mention of origin in listings now, but rather a boast about how easy it is to return things (that should rarely be needed with good tools).

Everything there - pax fret saw - $40 on the internet, $70 at stew mac.

Those router bases are all really expensive, too, and it's hard to figure out if S-M deserves to get paid double for them (can't tell if they developed them or if they're just relabeling).

Too, they have told me false information when I asked questions about origin - their "parson street" pickups state no origin and someone was gray marketing them for only $45 on etsy. At the time, they were $80 at S-M. I suspected they weren't made in the western world because nobody makes good humbuckers that cheaply. They flatly said "they're the same as ours (the gray market) and they're made in the US".

Guess where they're made - china.

I thought that was pretty presumptuous to ask $80 - just looked, they're $110 now.

ballsy. Sound-wise, they're not in a class with pickups like antiquities or really any other western PAF clones or even gibson stock pickups.

Long bit of info there - but kind of a sign of the times - we see it in tools, but it's everywhere, not just woodworking. Coupons, free shipping, buyer's club, free returns - all of it glosses over the fact that usually the tools aren't that great and even beyond that, they are more "with coupon" and all of the supposed deals than they would be if just bought individually. They know their market - my opinion, they've given up (like woodworking tools) selling tools to experienced users and are hunting for the constant flow of new beginners in a mid life crisis from a white collar job looking to buy into making a guitar.

 

[D_W]

Not that some of the domestic makers aren't taking beginners to the woodshed, too.

https://bluesprucetoolworks.com/collections/chisels/products/bench-chisel-1-1-000-25-4mm
$167 (!!!) for a single chisel made of A2 (not a great choice, but easy for a maker) and a curly maple handle. No bolster and a company mission statement that the chisels will take you back in time and inspire creativity.

I'm not sure how far back...2016?

I'd refer to these as chisel shaped objects because they're just overly finished legos that would fare poorly compared to a basic set of any japanese chisels (that can often be had for $150 nearly unused straight from japan - ...not for one, for a set of 10).

I would consider making tools full time if I had confidence that I could make $167 a chisel as I could hand forge, shape and finish and handle a set of five bench chisels in a day. And I think it would pay more than my day job. I can make a far better chisel than blue spruce, that's not the question. It's whether or not anyone would notice that it's better.

 

[G S Haydon]

and a company mission statement that the chisels will take you back in time and inspire creativity.

I'm not sure how far back...2016?

Too funny . Truly it was a very good year.

 

[Jorny]

Not that some of the domestic makers aren't taking beginners to the woodshed, too.

https://bluesprucetoolworks.com/collections/chisels/products/bench-chisel-1-1-000-25-4mm
$167 (!!!) for a single chisel made of A2 (not a great choice, but easy for a maker) and a curly maple handle. No bolster and a company mission statement that the chisels will take you back in time and inspire creativity.

I'm not sure how far back...2016?

I'd refer to these as chisel shaped objects because they're just overly finished legos that would fare poorly compared to a basic set of any japanese chisels (that can often be had for $150 nearly unused straight from japan - ...not for one, for a set of 10).

I would consider making tools full time if I had confidence that I could make $167 a chisel as I could hand forge, shape and finish and handle a set of five bench chisels in a day. And I think it would pay more than my day job. I can make a far better chisel than blue spruce, that's not the question. It's whether or not anyone would notice that it's better.

The blue spruce chisels are probably not cheap to produce. I would imagine that a lot of the cost is to finance the machinery for lapping and such. The question is; if you are going ro spend that much to produce an expensive chisel, have they spent the money on the right thing and are they expensive for the right reason? To my untrained eye i would say that they are not. They look similar to veritas chisels, but I would say that they veritas chisels look better, even though they cost less. And just considering the aesthetics, if I hade a lot of money and just wanted to get pretty tools, I would not get these. To be hinest they just look like a vulgar version of veritas chisels.

 

[Jacob]

The blue spruce chisels are probably not cheap to produce. I would imagine that a lot of the cost is to finance the machinery for lapping and such. The question is; if you are going ro spend that much to produce an expensive chisel, have they spent the money on the right thing and are they expensive for the right reason? To my untrained eye i would say that they are not. They look similar to veritas chisels, but I would say that they veritas chisels look better, even though they cost less. And just considering the aesthetics, if I hade a lot of money and just wanted to get pretty tools, I would not get these. To be hinest they just look like a vulgar version of veritas chisels.

Just spotted re Blue Spruce "Every book on sharpening chisels starts with pages of instructions on how to flatten the back."
This is not true but nonsense anyway - all that back flattening is an invention of the modern crazy sharpening fraternity. They even have fantasy rituals and talk of "commissioning" or "initialising" chisels!
All very weird - does the full moon come into it?
Completely pointless waste of time even on cheapo chisels.
Chisels are never so easy to sharpen as when brand new. A quick hone at 30º , take off the burr, and you are off!
PS come to think there are no "books on sharpening chisels" let alone pages of instructions! There are some long and boring youtube vids though.
Never give a sucker an even break!

 

[D_W]

and a company mission statement that the chisels will take you back in time and inspire creativity.

I'm not sure how far back...2016?

Too funny . Truly it was a very good year.

Strangely, I picked that year, but I've heard it before. "That was a great year for Gibson!"

Well, I don't know what that means -I think it just meant they had a good year buying figured wood and it'll take a couple of more years before the guitars need serious fretwork, and comparing that to 2010 is more of a passage of time thing.

Jorny hit it on the head - there is some cost to what woodpeckers is doing with the chisels. I'll address that in his post.

 

[D_W]

The blue spruce chisels are probably not cheap to produce. I would imagine that a lot of the cost is to finance the machinery for lapping and such. The question is; if you are going ro spend that much to produce an expensive chisel, have they spent the money on the right thing and are they expensive for the right reason? To my untrained eye i would say that they are not. They look similar to veritas chisels, but I would say that they veritas chisels look better, even though they cost less. And just considering the aesthetics, if I hade a lot of money and just wanted to get pretty tools, I would not get these. To be hinest they just look like a vulgar version of veritas chisels.

I could only guess at costs - I'm familiar with steel, but less familiar with contracting heat treat and finish work - none of us probably knows how much they do in house and how much they don't do in house. A2 is popular with toolmakers, though, because of how little follow up grinding it needs, it's widely available, not expensive, and the heat treat routine is really easy. Being generous, $15 for the steel, and a couple of bucks for the heat treat. Who knows how much on grinding and finishing, I'd be surprised if that was more than the same amount (and I'm counting bohler A2 at retail coming up with that figure - keep that in mind). No clue on handles and labor but there's a lot of room to get to $167 for a chisel.

But the comment about where the money is spent is dead on - it's aiming a group of people who don't want to learn anything and are scared of things they've read. "how hard will it be to flatten a set of chisels, and what bevel and, and and"...

.....The anticipation causes people who don't know about chisels to get further and further along the cost scale (and perhaps the average buyer is 55 or 60) and finally just give up and part with the most expensive thing they can find that promises the least effort to put the chisel in wood.

I think when you compare the look of the chisels to something well finished and glazed in england in 1850, the blue spruce is appalling. But they're not appealing to someone with a curated eye.

I think A2 is a lazy way out with chisels, too, but again, they're not selling chisels to someone who snaps samples in the garage and shrinks grain in a forge. They're selling to someone who will buy the aluminum and steel $200 "on sale" sharpening guide. Maybe the chance that the bevels would ever be ground on any of these things is somewhere around the mendoza line.

All that said, if you don't love chisels - and I don't see how anyone who really loves chisels would make anything the way they do - and there is a big market who just really wants something bad (the flattest and most polished back, and maybe a curly maple handle) - you just give it to them.

Too on the LV chisels - I had one when I did a test of various chisels. I like LV as a company. I didn't are for the chisels at all. The zero lands thing screams "it's too hard to come up with an elegant way to do the lands the way ward would've done it in the old days), and V11 is a relatively low toughness high wear resistance steel. It's kind of backwards - you want something with low abrasion resistance and good toughness so you can chase the hardness up without having a chippy edge.....at least if you're really out cork sniffing. The trouble with that is most of the steel that hits high hardness with easy sharpenability takes skill and quickness to heat treat well.

And most of the market -back to the mendoza line - would be afraid of even changing the bevel angle. They won't be grinding enough to notice that it's not a real great bargain - that is, the exchange for time sharpening vs. time chiseling.

 

[G S Haydon]

Just spotted re Blue Spruce "Every book on sharpening chisels starts with pages of instructions on how to flatten the back."
This is not true but nonsense anyway - all that back flattening is an invention of the modern crazy sharpening fraternity. They even have fantasy rituals and talk of "commissioning" or "initialising" chisels!
All very weird - does the full moon come into it?
Completely pointless waste of time even on cheapo chisels.
Chisels are never so easy to sharpen as when brand new. A quick hone at 30º , take off the burr, and you are off!
PS come to think there are no "books on sharpening chisels" let alone pages of instructions! There are some long and boring youtube vids though.
Never give a sucker an even break!

Quick enough?

 

[G S Haydon]

The Blue Spruce Dovetail Chisels remind me of a paring chisel I saw at Pilton Cabinet Works when they had a closing down sale many years ago.

It was a HSS planer knife therefore an even thickness with a bevel ground on one end, the other end was waisted in like the Blue Spruce and a handle knocked on. No bolster.

They had some nice ideas. They did quite a bit of work in Germany at one point and they used to take a VHS recorder with them and film the whole survey in detail and then watch it back as required in the shop.

I went there on a commercial basis looking for things that might work for us. If I could have the time again I would be looking for different things.

 

[D_W]

Actually, George mentioned the same thing - not sure if it was the cabinetmakers or instrument makers, but they would intentionally take used HSS planer blades and have a contest to see who could have the longer parer.

I've gone on at length on every medium about the taper from tang to end being important both for stiffness and strength where it should be and not where it shouldn't be. The spring of the chisel if there will be any (like a parer) will be mostly in the last half. I've made parers too thin and with too much spring and they're awkward to use.

That probably has a lot to do with blue spruce claiming short chisels are parers. The follow up to those has been overly fat and blade heavy flat tapered bench chisels.

it's beyond a lot of folks, I guess, to get some older chisels and just copy them.

 

[D_W]

Just spotted re Blue Spruce "Every book on sharpening chisels starts with pages of instructions on how to flatten the back."
This is not true but nonsense anyway - all that back flattening is an invention of the modern crazy sharpening fraternity. They even have fantasy rituals and talk of "commissioning" or "initialising" chisels!
All very weird - does the full moon come into it?
Completely pointless waste of time even on cheapo chisels.
Chisels are never so easy to sharpen as when brand new. A quick hone at 30º , take off the burr, and you are off!
PS come to think there are no "books on sharpening chisels" let alone pages of instructions! There are some long and boring youtube vids though.
Never give a sucker an even break!

Holtzappfel and hasluck both have spent a fair bit of text talking about sharpening chisels. I'm not sure what nicholson wrote about it.

They also talk in those older texts about it being important for a workman to keep stones flat for fine work.

 

[Jacob]

Quick enough?

Spot on! less than 30 seconds!
Don't want to be pernickety but it's even easier if you hold the handle with one hand rather than both on the blade. This is what handles are for. It makes it easier to hold the angle close to 30º and you can give it more thrust.

 

[Jacob]

Just prepping for breakfast. Commissioning the tools. I've got to flatten the knife, initialise the fork and take the belly out of the spoon.

 

[paulm2930]

Welll I ordered one. I’m rather impressed with it.

 

[D_W]

I saw another post from Rob Lee elsewhere talking about something that LV hasn't gotten into production.

At the end of it, he said something about "opening it up to overseas partners" or some term like that. Those aren't the exact words and there wasn't any real description of what that meant.

We can't be sure, or I can't, that these castings aren't made with permission or licensing. So, to the extent that could be true, if it is, I find it disappointing, but disappointment is less than offensive or appalling like copying someone else's work would be.

 

[BillHoughton]

...(didn't old men have distorted teeth a coupleof centuries ago??)...

In the early part of the 20th century, in the U.S. at least, the term for a timber propped up to serve as a firm place against which to lever was an "old man." For instance, if you were using a ratchet drill* to bore a large hole, you needed something against which the ratchet could bear. Thus the "old man."

The implication that old men aren't good for much but standing around stings a bit when you become an old man yourself, and, together with the term "old woman's tooth," certainly puts paid to that myth that, in the auld daze, elders were universally respected members of the community.
----------
*If you're not familiar with these: imagine a ratchet like the kind you might use to fix the car, but way larger, operating a screw thread with a chuck (or tapered hole) at the end, holding a large boring bit. Turn the ratchet handle, the screw thread becomes longer, the bit is forced into the work. Before electric drills, this was one, and a common, way to make large holes in wood or metal.

 

[G S Haydon]

Thanks for the photos Paul. Keep us updated!

 

[paulm2930]

I’ve not used this too much yet but I’ve had a chance to play with it and form an opinion. I’m really liking it, the blade stays exactly as i set it there’s zero movement once set. The blade attachment is rock steady and there’s no hint of any play in the way it is fixed to the body of the tool. I have no experience of the LN or LV types but from what I’ve read about these the blade can move on you in use, I’ve had none of that with this. The main selling point of this though is “zero backlash” in the adjustment of the blade which is very close to being true in that movement is seen with I would say less that a few minutes of a turn on the adjustment wheel. Far better than I expected, it’s very good. All of it is very good in fact, all the machining is excellent the anodising is excellent the quality of the adjusters are good. It’s a good tool. I can’t wait to use it more.
Does it bother me that the base looks similar to the veritas version… no. My quangsheng bedrocks look very similar to other makers planes and no one seems to slate quangsheng for blatant copying, why would this be different?

 

[D_W]

I’ve not used this too much yet but I’ve had a chance to play with it and form an opinion. I’m really liking it, the blade stays exactly as i set it there’s zero movement once set. The blade attachment is rock steady and there’s no hint of any play in the way it is fixed to the body of the tool. I have no experience of the LN or LV types but from what I’ve read about these the blade can move on you in use, I’ve had none of that with this. The main selling point of this though is “zero backlash” in the adjustment of the blade which is very close to being true in that movement is seen with I would say less that a few minutes of a turn on the adjustment wheel. Far better than I expected, it’s very good. All of it is very good in fact, all the machining is excellent the anodising is excellent the quality of the adjusters are good. It’s a good tool. I can’t wait to use it more.
Does it bother me that the base looks similar to the veritas version… no. My quangsheng bedrocks look very similar to other makers planes and no one seems to slate quangsheng for blatant copying, why would this be different?

There's some real chance at this point that the base pattern copying was allowed or released given the recent comment about releasing a tool pattern to "international partners".

Though that may not mean what I think it means, too.

I think with all of the talk of fine adjustment, we get stuck in a rut thinking a router plane is intended to do something where this would be needed. We'd typically set the depth of a router plane off of a reference and remove most of the waste before it gets somewhere with another tool (chisel, sawing, breaking out).

Zero backlash is maybe interesting from an early point of view, but it won't provide any usefulness in work, or if it does, it's a sign that hand tool work isn't progressing that far. Which is a shame.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with something adjusting crisply, it's just not needed or it would've been a feature of the original stanley planes (which I like better than the premium versions, and have had both).

 

[Lonsdale73]

I’ve not used this too much yet but I’ve had a chance to play with it and form an opinion. I’m really liking it, the blade stays exactly as i set it there’s zero movement once set. The blade attachment is rock steady and there’s no hint of any play in the way it is fixed to the body of the tool. I have no experience of the LN or LV types but from what I’ve read about these the blade can move on you in use, I’ve had none of that with this. The main selling point of this though is “zero backlash” in the adjustment of the blade which is very close to being true in that movement is seen with I would say less that a few minutes of a turn on the adjustment wheel. Far better than I expected, it’s very good. All of it is very good in fact, all the machining is excellent the anodising is excellent the quality of the adjusters are good. It’s a good tool. I can’t wait to use it more.
Does it bother me that the base looks similar to the veritas version… no. My quangsheng bedrocks look very similar to other makers planes and no one seems to slate quangsheng for blatant copying, why would this be different?

Are you still using it or has it become a fancy/expensive ornament? Did you get clobbered with import tax and handling fees?