New Laws vs Mail Order Tools

[thetyreman]

can't help thinking that cuts to police play a massive part in this, also I wouldn't be surprised if there's a new tax on businesses that sell tools, which will make things even harder for them, online or not, it's not progress, it's a step backwards.

 

[Rob_Mc]

... or any young criminals who want a knife and cannot buy one will surely manufacture their own weapon. After all they don't sell knives in prison but I imagine even the least innovative of prisoners could fashion a shiv out of whatever is to hand should they need to.

The more discerning criminal may even become an ardent viewer of the 'Forged in Fire' tv program and invest the necessary equipment to forge his own weapon (a chavvy version of a Jedi crafting his own lightsabre). That is until they ban the sale of all tools that can possibly be used to manufacture bladed items too.

This proposed change in the law has clearly not been thought through properly and is unlikely to achieve the intended reduction in knife crime.

 

[LukeB]

Hey Guys,
I just joined this forum after googling the new legislation. I run a bushcraft retail business, I won't post links here as I don't want to look like i'm plugging my site.

We have a group on facebook for discussing the legislation called the 'blade traders association'
Feel free to join if you wish.

We've been established for about 10 months and had a few meetings and pooled responses from MPs. Tomorrow should be an interesting day with the debate in parliament.

Let's hope someone makes them see sense.

 

[Tasky]

The more discerning criminal may even become an ardent viewer of the 'Forged in Fire' tv program and invest the necessary equipment to forge his own weapon (a chavvy version of a Jedi crafting his own lightsabre). That is until they ban the sale of all tools that can possibly be used to manufacture bladed items too.

At which point they'll go all Ray Mears and start frapping flint blades that they bind to wooden handles with animal sinews...

 

[aesmith]

Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a bladed product by mail order, and is clearly aimed at knives and other potential weapons. However, the definition of bladed product in section 17(1) covers a wide range of products which are unlikely to be potential weapons.

However... Section 17(2) immediately afterward states:

17/. Meaning of “bladed product” in sections 15 and 16
(2) In sections 15 and 16 so far as they apply to England and Wales, “bladed product” does not include an article described in—
(a) section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959,
(b) an order under section 141(2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, or
(c) an order made by the Secretary of State under section 141A(3)(c) of that
Act.

So 17(2) seems to specifically exclude that wide range of products, under 141(2) of the CJA 1988..... which, as I read it, means we're fine since chisels and the like are not specifically made for the purpose of hurting someone... and only if you then adapt it for such things yourself, does it become a crime.

American style unguarded tablesaws, however..... Deadly weapons, the lot of 'em!! :lol:

I don't read it that way. Section 141(2) of the CJA 1988 defines some items as weapons and therefore illegal to sell "Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person, a weapon to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence ..". So those weapons are excluded from the scope of this legislation as they're illegal anyway. What's left is defined as any bladed article capable of causing injury by piercing the skin.

 

[RogerP]

Message sent to my MP (Richard Graham).

All I got back was ...

Think that only affects under 18 buyers Roger

Best regards
Richard

Richard Graham
Member of Parliament for Gloucester
2 College Street, Gloucester, GL1 2NE


... glad I didn't vote for him!

 

[custard]

I emailed my MP as follows,

As one of your constituents I'd like to raise a likely but unintended side-effect of the Offensive Weapons Bill.

Section 15 effectively makes it an offence to sell a "bladed product" by mail order. Although this is intended to reduce knife crime, the wide definition of bladed products in section 17(1) covers a huge range of entirely legitimate products that will never be used as weapons.

I am a cabinet maker and regularly buy plane blades, chisels, and other sharp tools which are essential for my craft. Unfortunately it is no longer possible to buy these products in local shops, so the only option is mail order. Even more concerning is that many essential tools, such as circular saw blades and router cutters, require specialist re-sharpening by companies that are located some distance away, postal communication is the only practical solution, but that may also be prohibited by this new legislation.

I would be grateful if you could explore how the legislation might be ammended to prevent this problem.

He replied within the day promising to look into it and notify the minister concerned. Can't ask for fairer than that.

 

[MattRoberts]

Nice one custard, look forward to seeing any reply

 

[custard]

Just had an email from my MP (Desmond Swayne), pointing out he'd flagged the question during the Bill's second reading yesterday,

Offensive Weapons Bill

27 June 2018
Volume 643
​
Second Reading
1.40 pm
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sajid Javid)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
For the past two years, we have seen an unacceptable increase in recorded knife and gun crime. We have also seen a rise in acid attacks. Sadly, there was a vivid example just this week, with the fatal stabbing of Jordan Douherty, a young man of only 15 who had a great future ahead of him, but whose life was tragically cut short. The Bill will strengthen powers available to the police to deal with acid attacks and knife crime. Its measures will make it more difficult for young people to use acid as a weapon and to purchase knives online.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
Craftsmen such as carpenters rely on mail order for the provision of their specialist tools because that can no longer be maintained locally. Will the Home Secretary ensure that this excellent Bill does not intrude on the provision of lawful trade?
Sajid Javid
I am glad that my right hon. Friend, like me, thinks that the Bill is excellent. I can give him that assurance. As I talk a bit more about the Bill, it will become clear that the right types of reasonable defence will absolutely be in place. For example, knife sales to businesses and for other legitimate use will remain unaffected.
There have sadly been 77 homicides in London alone this year, but violent crime affects all parts of our country, not just our big cities. Violent crime destroys lives and devastates communities, and it has to stop….
See full debate at
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2 ... eaponsBill

 

[Woody2Shoes]

Well done Custard! (Even if you did get "demoted" to "carpenter"!).

Looks like your MP is doing a decent job.

 

[Garno]

Message sent to my MP (Richard Graham).

All I got back was ...

Think that only affects under 18 buyers Roger

Best regards
Richard

Richard Graham
Member of Parliament for Gloucester
2 College Street, Gloucester, GL1 2NE


... glad I didn't vote for him!

I bet he knows you didn't vote for him .....................

 

[MattRoberts]

Really impressed that your MP brought it up so quickly Custard - I'd vote for him!

 

[LukeB]

Just had an email from my MP (Desmond Swayne), pointing out he'd flagged the question during the Bill's second reading yesterday,

Excellent work and he sure was keen to get your point across. I think your next move should be to point out to your MP that the exclusions Sajid Javid said are in place do not solve the problem. An amendment is needed for either 'tools of the trade' or 'hobby knives'. Maybe try asking your MP if he will table an amendment in committee stage. Once again, well done. My MP is under the impression "knives are bad, and should all be banned" - paraphrasing a bit.

 

[Tasky]

My right honourable Friends seem to forget that the problem is not underage online sales, or even in the exotic zombie knives and things they're trying to ban. It is the culture and the mentality that would lead people to picking up an item and using it to harm someone else.

Because no matter what you ban, people will just find ways of using something else:
In 1180AD the City of London banned schools of Sword & Buckler, because too many young men were picking fights of a Saturday night.
In Japan, swords were famously banned for those below certain social classes, yet we now have a wealth of martial arts (and films) that revolve around agricultural tools used effectively as weapons. Heck, the Royal Armoury has always kept enough Billhooks to fully arm the Yeomen of the contemporary English army more than twice over, because they were so good at using forestry tools on the battlefield.

I've had knives and swords ever since I was a kid. I've not once stabbed anyone with them...

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Custard, fair play to your MP. Him being a Tory and me finding Jeremy Corbyn a bit too right wing I doubt we'd agree on much politically, but I totally respect someone who actually represents their constituents concerns, especially a case like this where less scrupulous politicians could accuse him of being "soft" on knife crime. Badly thought out legislation brought in due to public pressure/newspaper outrage should be brought to account by all politicians, unfortunately I imagine Desmond Swayne is in a minority (from both sides of the house).

Tasky, I really don't quite know where I am on this. I certainly don't think assault rifles should be legal, and I can see if you follow that logic then swords and zombie knives should come into the discussion (at close range a knife is more effective than a gun). On the other hand I nearly always carry a knife as it is really handy for cutting things. Unlike you I have stabbed someone.....but only myself through bad knife handling (on that score chisels are far more dangerous).

 

[Sheffield Tony]

Sajid Javid
I am glad that my right hon. Friend, like me, thinks that the Bill is excellent. I can give him that assurance. As I talk a bit more about the Bill, it will become clear that the right types of reasonable defence will absolutely be in place. For example, knife sales to businesses and for other legitimate use will remain unaffected.

Ah yes, it doesn't apply to delivery to business adresses, so trade are OK, hobbyists and DIYers on the other hand might still have a problem. Of course, government don't care a lot about hobbyists and DIYers - people doing something for themselves doesn't create employment or bring in tax revenue. When I'm in my most cynical mood I wonder if that is not a significant part of what building regs are about.

Fundamentally, I agree with what Tasky wrote. We should not be looking to ban anything that might be used to cause an injury, but to try and understand, and fix, whatever is going wrong that some people think stabbing one another or throwing acid is a reasonable response to anything. Banning can't work - a kitchen knife that can to cut up meat will of course be capable of doing serious harm to another person. Can we stop the bad guys getting a kitchen knife ? Are under 18's not allowed to cook from raw ingredients ? I thought we were trying to educate people to do more of that ?

I heard that the **** industry was being pressured into some sort of scheme for age verification for on-line purchases; if that can be done, can't it work for less sensitive things like alcohol, bladed items, acids etc ?

 

[custard]

Well done Custard!

All I did was follow ProfChris's guidelines, I paraphrased his suggested letter and sourced the email address from the link he provided. He's the one who should be congratulated!

 

[custard]

This legislation, properly structured to safeguard legitimate usage, has my support.

It would help restrict the availability of the ludicrously intimidating weapons that appeal to the feeble minded and easily led. There's a reason this is the best remembered scene from Crocodile Dundee,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQrLPtr_ikE

 

[Tasky]

Tasky, I really don't quite know where I am on this. I certainly don't think assault rifles should be legal, and I can see if you follow that logic then swords and zombie knives should come into the discussion

In the UK... Dunno. Most of the time licenced people can be trusted with their shooters.
The only thing the firearm bans have done is take away legal owners' ability to shoot certain weapons. Those who could get a pistol from some dodgy source still can get those same pistols from those same dodgy sources.

FYI - It's only curved katanas that were banned, since cheap wallhangers were most often (in relative terms) used in crimes. Straight bladed cruciform Broadswords and similar Oakeshott types are still perfectly legal... because it was yet another knee-jerk reaction ban.

Unlike you I have stabbed someone.....but only myself through bad knife handling (on that score chisels are far more dangerous).

I am, however, trained in how to hurt people with a wide variety of weapons... and a hobby knife or chisel would be quite far down on my list of choices.

Can we stop the bad guys getting a kitchen knife ? Are under 18's not allowed to cook from raw ingredients ? I thought we were trying to educate people to do more of that ?

Again, age is not a problem - There's very little stopping your under-18 from simply nicking a legally owned weapon/bladed-product, from a shop, a shed, a kitchen drawer, a workplace, or any number of places with legitimate ownership. Making it illegal to deliver to a residential address won't even impact the consumers - It will just cost the retailers and some couriers a shedload of business.

 

[Brandlin]

Message sent to my MP (Richard Graham).

All I got back was ...

Think that only affects under 18 buyers Roger

Best regards
Richard

Richard Graham
Member of Parliament for Gloucester
2 College Street, Gloucester, GL1 2NE


... glad I didn't vote for him!

So you follow up by pointing out his error, and suggesting he reads the bill before commenting.

Then bringing this reply to the attention of the 'other party'. And potentially phone the local paper... might be a few column inches in it and stimulates some debate on
1) the responsibility of elected MPs
2) the Bill itself..


Still waiting on a response from my MP