New blade essential for ultra thin shavings?

[StevieB]

Finally got round to looking at an old record 5 1/2 rescued from a deceased relatives garage at the weekend. Being fairly new to this hand tool lark I religiously did lots of reading from DC's book and various websites before starting. Flattened the sole no problem, and attended to the frog, frog seating, chipbreaker and lever cap etc as well as giving a new primary and secondary bevel to the iron. After all that I managed to get shavings in the region of 0.003 to 0.005 inches, which sounds impressive (to me anyway) but not the 'read newspaper through it' thinness that is often quoted as the benchmark of a well tuned plane. Any attempt to get thinner than this resulted in fragmented shavings or at worst powder. Iron was honed on a 1000 (primary) then 6000 (secondary) waterstone after flattening the back. So my question is, should you be able to get to 0.001 inch thick shavings with a standard iron, or is a hock iron required for this level of tuning? Timber tried was ABW and pine plus an offcut of something that was hanging about in my offcuts box, possibly apple (?). The iron has record stamped into it so I am guessing its the original supplied iron.

As a final question, the sides of the plane seem to be a long way out of square to the sole (1mm or more inwards at the top of the side). How does one attend to this or is it not worth it for that distance? Is it simply a case of holding the sole against a 90 degree vertical edge and wearing the side away, which sounds like it will take an age? I presume this is not really necessary unless one wants to shoot with the plane anyway?

Thanks for any pointers, I know there are a myriad of sharpening techniques out there and dont want to start yet another discussion on what is already available, just wondered if I was wasting my time trying to reach that mythical level with a standard iron.

cheers,

Steve.

 

[TrimTheKing]

Hi Steve

I am very new to woodworking myself, and by no means an expert (in fact I probably just about qualify as a village silly person ), but I bought (on DC's advice on his DVD) an old (1930-1935 dated) Stanley 5 1/2 with the original Sweetheart blade and c/b.

The c/b is fairly badly damaged on the edge but I tuned it up using DC's methods (800/1200/10,000 King Waterstones) as best I could and I managed full length, full width edge shavings slightly thinner than 0.001 with that blade, on 1" European Oak.

While I will be replacing the blade and c/b as it has some bad pitting along the back which makes it unusable for fine work, I have no doubt that without this pitting I would have no issue whatsoever with using it day in day out.

Hope this helps

Many thanks

Mark

 

[Paul Kierstead]

So my question is, should you be able to get to 0.001 inch thick shavings with a standard iron, or is a hock iron required for this level of tuning?

IMO (and experience, which certainly ISN'T up to par(*) with many here), almost any blade of any even just OK tool steel should be able to take very fine shavings in well-behaved wood when it has been freshly sharpened. Better steel will get you better edge life.

My guess would be (a) plane not as flat as you think or (b) edge is not as sharp as it needs to be. Until you have one *really* sharp, it is easy to think it is sharp. My bets would be on (b), but it is pretty hard to say.

I presume this is not really necessary unless one wants to shoot with the plane anyway?

Unless you are shooting, the sides are just for structural integrity and the angle matters not at all. Even if shooting, the lateral adjust lever could be used to sort things out in a pinch.

Edit:
Added the rather important ISN'T to the above. Also, should it be "isn't down to par"? These golf things can cause confusion...

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

About a week or two ago, I went through a similar fettling of a Stanley 5-1/2. The plane wouldn't make a shaving less than .004 to .005 thousandth with the stock blade. When I examined the blade, the side that beds against the frog had ripples in the metal similar to wood that has gone through an electric planer. So I figure a new blade was in order.

I order a Hock high carbon steel blade plus a Hock chipbreaker. Since I was investing the money in the blade, I decided to invest my time into a "David Charlesworth" fettle of the plane as well as the blade and chipbreaker. Upon completion, after much sole flattening, I do have a minor hollow about 1/2" wide immediately in front of the blade. Don't like it, but I'll have to live with it. The blade was a bear to flatten, but I got it, as well as sharpening the bevel. I also polished the chipbreaker, ala DC.

Put it all together without much more fussing of adjusting the frog and all and shavings were easily 1-1/2 thou. Time to use the plane for a while before doing anything further: I want to get accustomed to how it comes to hand.

T.Z.

 

[tnimble]

The old steel and the new A2, O2 alloys remain sharp much longer then the current and vintage stanley / record / ... blades. But all can be sharpened very sharp. The new alloys can't be made as sharp as the old irons though, but this is mostly is not never a problem.

The ability to not being able to take a shaving you can read the newspaper through is not that important. (I was never able to read any newpaper through a shaving. But this is more due the fact I don't have nor read newpapers at all). The important thing is to get continues shavings that are thin enough for the task at hand. Generally a shaving of 1 thou has no usage at all. Its only nice to see you can take shavings that thin.

As been said what one thinks is flat or sharp can be very far from fact. A very sharp blade can easily become a well-its-not-dull-but blade if one has not seen a sharper blade. Without the right measuring tool or proper use of that tool alot can seem flat.

As for the sides. Flattening can be still done. Especially when the sides are not prefect flat slopes but a bit concave. This is my method and squaring can be done in about 15 minutes:
- Hold the plane against a good light source and put a good square up against the sole ans while firmly pressing it against the sol slide it down till it makes just about contact with the side. Mark the spots where no (or the least lights) pours through.
- Repeat the above for various places along the length of the plane
- Mark the rest of the sole with another colour or symbol/mark/pattern.
- With a good file held diagonally attack the marked high spots. Make small strokes with finger pressure directly above the marked high spots. Use the file handle only to guide the file in a horizontal plane. Make movements along the length of the plane while checking the markings you made on the plane's side. Metal should only be removed from the high spot marks. Stop or tilt the file when hitting the other marks.
- Recheck the squareness and repeat above steps.
- Flatten the side of the sole the same as you would flatten the sole.

 

[bugbear]

After all that I managed to get shavings in the region of 0.003 to 0.005 inches, which sounds impressive (to me anyway) but not the 'read newspaper through it' thinness that is often quoted as the benchmark of a well tuned plane. Any attempt to get thinner than this resulted in fragmented shavings or at worst powder.

Not sharp enough.

Perhaps expert users of waterstone will contribute(I'm a scary sharp and/or oilstone user), but IIRC allowing the slurry to almost dry, and easing the pressure from your hands at the final stage of honing is deemed helpful.

BugBear

 

[StevieB]

Many thanks for the input, interesting to hear that a new blade makes for a longer holding edge rather than a sharper one, this is not something that jumped out at me from my (limited) reading on this area.

Am inclined to agree that the blade is not sharp enough since the sole is flat as assessed by felt tip pen lines being removed on wet and dry paper. Is the consensus that 6000 is not fine enough and one should routinely go down to 8000 or lower, or do I just need to refine the iron a little more at 6000? What grade do you go down to on wet and dry bugbear?

Cheers,

Steve.

 

[PaulO]

You say that you flattened the sole, but how did you check the flatness? A small bump behind the mouth could cause the problems you are having.

 

[Chris Knight]

Steve,

It should be easy to take fine shavings with a standard iron if the plane has been fettled properly. Your mention of powder makes me suspect lack of sharpness and/or blade vibration - in that order. Sharpness should be easy to check - can you push (not slice) the blade into a sheet of paper? If so, blade is sharp enough for a one thou shaving.

If you can and there is still a problem, check the frog and chipbreaker for trouble.

 

[woodbloke]

Steve - you flattened the back, which is good and honed the bevels, finishing on a 6000g waterstone, which ought to be quite satisfactory. I wonder though if you removed all the burr from the edge? I use Mr C's ruler trick to do this and then I hone the finished micro bevel again very lightly (I use a 10000g Spyderco for this) and finaly finish with the 'ruler trick' a second time. I agree with Chris that the edge is probably not keen enough to remove a one thou shaving...remove all the burr and it will be.
It's also quite possible to take 0.001" shavings from a standard plane that has been well tuned, the critical area is just behind the mouth where the metal should not be proud at all but dead level with the back of the mouth - Rob

 

[Hokie]

I agree with Woodbloke since I have had a similar problem with a Record 5 1/2" that was old but new-in-box. I kept bending the wire edge back and forth. I take the wire edge off at 6000 and then again at the highest grit. The ruler trick at this point sounds like a great idea.

I can't seem to get an A-2 steel sharp until at least 4-5 sharpenings.

But I use a 5 1/2" for taking down wood at 1/32" at a time to thickness the board.

 

[Philly]

I use a 4000 grit waterstone (King) before the 6000 - makes all the difference. The wire edge is completely gone after the 4000 leaving the 6000 to get polishing.
This has made my sharpening much more predictable and repeatable.
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[tnimble]

For flattening I use a cource and medium diamond stone followed by my 1000 grit norrton waterstone. For some blades I start with a 80 grit sanding brush removing the highest spots first.

For sharpening I use my 1000 grit and 8000 grit with nagura norton waterstones. I don't find any use in the ruler trick, the wire edge is completely removed with only a few strokes on the 8000 grit and re-polished with only a few more.

Having a wire edge bending back and forth is caused to my experience by either: to much downward pressure, pushing the blade forward over the stone instead of pulling it backwards, or soft steel which can be due to poor blade quality or loosing tempering due to over heating on a power grinder .

 

[StevieB]

Many thanks for all the opinions, I will have another go with sharpening the blade and see how I go.

Steve.

 

[bugbear]

Many thanks for the input, interesting to hear that a new blade makes for a longer holding edge rather than a sharper one, this is not something that jumped out at me from my (limited) reading on this area.

Not all new blades - new alloys. Some new blades are made from good-old-O1 steel.

Am inclined to agree that the blade is not sharp enough since the sole is flat as assessed by felt tip pen lines being removed on wet and dry paper.

That depends. What reference surface is the wet 'n' dry on, and what precautions are you taking against a convex sole?

Is the consensus that 6000 is not fine enough and one should routinely go down to 8000 or lower, or do I just need to refine the iron a little more at 6000? What grade do you go down to on wet and dry bugbear?

As it happens, 2500, but technique is also important. A 6000 waterstone is enough to create the edge you desire.

BugBear