Mystery Stanley bailey 4 & a half

[markturner]

my latest E-bay acquisition is proving a bit of a mystery to positively identify. I hope some of you more knowledgeable bailey buffs can help. I think its a type 14 or 15, but it has features of both on the sole and frog as follows:

It has " made in USA" at the front of the toe and "Bailey" behind the front knob.
it has the old style frog without the rounded shoulders, which was last seen on the type 15.
it has a raised ring for the front knob, which is the high type.
The lever cap has the kidney shaped hole
It has no dates or anything stamped behind the frog on the sole


can anyone pin it down? is it some kind of transition version?


Cheers, mark

 

[bosshogg]

Photo please...why do you describe in your header as a 4 & a half, but in the text as a 14 or 15??

 

[markturner]

It's a 4 and a half in size / number...... not type

i can post some photos if you like, but I have described all the salient points.

rexmill and hyperkitten indicate it as being around the 14 or 15 type age, but it has piqued my interest that it has definite features of both type, which is not referred to as ever being seen. some of the types have definite transition features, especially round the war years, but not usually round this age / era, where there are pretty definite indicators for type - as far as i can tell.

 

[ac445ab]

Ciao Mark,
from your description your plane seems a type 15 with a later lever cap. I would exclude type 14 because the patent date lacks.
May be the lever cap has been simply replaced.
Regards
Giuliano

 

[Vann]

Hi Mark,

It's likely that any plane purchased second hand could have bits from other planes. So lets look at the sole first:

...and "Bailey" behind the front knob.

That appears to make it type #15 or later;

it has a raised ring for the front knob...

type #14 or later;

It has no dates or anything stamped behind the frog on the sole

type 15 or later;

It has " made in USA" at the front of the toe...

This appears to be odd.

Can you throw any other light on the plane? Are there No.s "73" & "71" cast in the bed? Is there a broad flat rib around the toe and heal?
Once you've established the sole type, then you can look more closely at the frog, irons and cap-iron and decide if they're possibly the same type.

Cheers, Vann (I just love this sort of thing) :tool:

 

[markturner]

Hi Vann, Guilano, yes, its the sole that throws up the questions, as both guides state that the raised ring and made in USA on the toe indicate a type 14, however, the complete lack of any stamps behind the frog say a 15. If it was a 14, it would have a patent date behind the frog, if it was a 15, it would not have made in USA on the toe.....it would be behind the frog. The lever cap could obviously have been swapped out, and the iron is of the early type, type 6 to type 9, with "Stanley" and "Patapl19.92" stamped on it.

There is no rib and no other markings stamped in the sole, apart from a 3 inside the rear handle mounting recess. It has the frog adjuster screw.
I will post up some photos shortly....


By the way, how do you date the bedrock versions? I have a really nice 605, just got from american ebay,

cheers, Mark

 

[markturner]

OK, here are the photos......

Hope that helps!!!

Cheers, Mark

 

[Scouse]

Have you tried here

https://home.comcast.net/~stanleyplanes ... typing.htm

Handy type study with pictures for comparison.

Edit: is the handle overhang stepped on the underneath or smooth and level with the rest of the sole?

 

[markturner]

Hi Scouse, thanks, I am familiar with the Rexmill site, it's from there that I am getting the information that identifies it as both a type 14 and a 15!!. The handle is flat on the bottom.

Cheers, Mark

 

[ac445ab]

For The #4 1/2 is not the first time I can see the "Made in Usa" not behind the frog as usual, but in that position like your plane or even along the handle base on the right side...

By the way, how do you date the bedrock versions? I have a really nice 605, just got from american ebay,

cheers, Mark

I use to see here:
http://www.antique-used-tools.com/brtypes.htm

Hope this helps

Ciao,
Giuliano

 

[bugbear]

It's a 4 and a half in size / number...... not type

i can post some photos if you like, but I have described all the salient points.

rexmill and hyperkitten indicate it as being around the 14 or 15 type age, but it has piqued my interest that it has definite features of both type, which is not referred to as ever being seen. some of the types have definite transition features, especially round the war years, but not usually round this age / era, where there are pretty definite indicators for type - as far as i can tell.

If you read the notes on the dating pages, they concentrate on main casting features, because it's very easy for all the other pieces to be mixed and matched over time.

The detailed timeline covers induividual features without this restriction - if your plane is from a mixture of parts, you'll get a mixture of dates.

BugBear

 

[jimi43]

I agree totally with bugbear. It seem that especially on FleaBay....there are a lot of hybrids.....

Some are deliberately so to simulate age...some are just naturally bit parted over the years as things get worn and break....handles and totes (!) especially...followed by irons and cap irons of course!

It's when you see frogs and adjusters sitting on the wrong sole you have to be suspect... :wink:

Jim

 

[markturner]

Hi Guys, yes, I would entirely agree, however the mystery with this one is that the conflicting characteristics are on the sole, which is one piece and cant be swapped out.....

Guilano, that's interesting, you say you have seen planes with similar mixed characteristics?

 

[Henry Disston]

Nice blade. Quite a bit older than the plane.

 

[markturner]

Yeah Henry, the blade is a real peach, its almost as new , perfectly square and just needed a little polish. What do you reckon it is? A 14 or 15? or could we call it a 14.5? In the absence of any definitive identification, its going to a 14.5 for me.....

I have to say, its a lovely plane, now its all restored and one of my favourites. I cant believe how addictive this is.... you think that you have enough, but........I really love the old American planes, especially when they are all cleaned up and polished and smelling of wax and the screws and brass all shiny and lovely...... sorry, come over all unnecessary...

 

[jimi43]

Slippery slope Mark....slippery slope! :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[ac445ab]

Hi Guys, yes, I would entirely agree, however the mystery with this one is that the conflicting characteristics are on the sole, which is one piece and cant be swapped out.....

Guilano, that's interesting, you say you have seen planes with similar mixed characteristics?

Yes, in the recent past I rehabbed several Stanley planes of SW era and I remember well a #4 1/2 type 15 with "Made in Usa" along the rear handle base and I am sure there are other particulars which do not talk about in type studies. In effect typing is not a Stanley purpose but an invention of plane collectors so as the concept of hybrid...

 

[ac445ab]

Slippery slope Mark....slippery slope! :mrgreen:

Jim

I see the plane desease is worldwide spread...... :mrgreen:


Giuliano

 

[Henry Disston]

Yeah Henry, the blade is a real peach, its almost as new , perfectly square and just needed a little polish. What do you reckon it is? A 14 or 15? or could we call it a 14.5? In the absence of any definitive identification, its going to a 14.5 for me.....

I have to say, its a lovely plane, now its all restored and one of my favourites. I cant believe how addictive this is.... you think that you have enough, but........I really love the old American planes, especially when they are all cleaned up and polished and smelling of wax and the screws and brass all shiny and lovely...... sorry, come over all unnecessary...

I'm not a real believer in type studies. They do help in getting general age of a plane but the tools were made first and type studies came later. They are not absolute. My best guess is that there was a short run of bodies made with these features somewhere in the Type 14/15 range and the molds were changed to what is now known as the type 15 features. 14.5 sounds like a fine description to me. The blade, however is from 1892-1910 and is a fine, laminated blade. I have some of these and they sharpen easily and hold an edge very well.

 

[ac445ab]

The blade, however is from 1892-1910 and is a fine, laminated blade. I have some of these and they sharpen easily and hold an edge very well.

Another stranger note: blade lamination was discontinuous. Not all the blades with same logo were laminated. Just today I have sharp a blade with the same logo of Mark's plane and it was not laminated.
The same I noticed with other Stanley pre-war blades.

Ciao,

Giuliano