Multi-point timber door locks

[Dan-K]

Hi guys,
I need some help I want to fit a high security lock on my 'shop and I don't want to have half a dozen bolts and padlocks stuck all over the door. What I was planning to use was a five point lock for a timber door like this one - central lock, 2 hooks, 2 shoot bolts. My issue is that the door opening is only 1800mm high and I'm not sure if I can chop that much off. Anyne have any experience of cutting to length? Also, is Fort a good brand name or are there better options out there? Or as good options for a lower price?
Thanks

 

[Steve Maskery]

Hi Dan
I've fitted just such a lock to my front door and I would have no hesitation in doing the same again. I think you will have no difficulty in losing 300mm - IIRC the ends can be fitted anywhere along the length. But don't quote me on that, I can't remember the name of the one I bought, but I don't think it was either of the ones on that data sheet.

Why is the Fort twice the price of the Era, do you know?

Don't forget that you have to buy the cylinders separately and that there are different lengths for different thicknesses of door.

Cheers
Steve

 

[DeanN]

I really wouldn't bother with the multi-point as they are only as secure as the cylinder used, and euro cylinders are not secure - plenty of info on the internet on how to bump/snap/drill or bypass most cylinders. Also, when they develop a fault, its usually the entire mechanism that needs replacing, as they are not designed to be repaired. It's also worth checking with your insurer if they will provide cover if a multi-point is fitted.

Instead, go for a sashlock (with handle/latch) fitted centrally, and a deadlock fitted top and bottom (halfway between the sashlock and the top/bottom of the door). All 3 can be keyed-alike to operate from the same key, and you'll have no problems with your insurer.

If the door is outward opening, also fit hinge bolts to prevent the door being lifted out of the frame.

Much more secure and easily maintained

 

[Dibs-h]

I'm with Dean on this one - I'm not a fan of EuroLocks.

Make sure the Sash\Dead locks are 5 lever (or detents - if you want).

You could use a rim cylinder on the top one - that way whilst your in there, it's a bit more convenient. But again choose wisely as el cheapo's can be bumped. Admittedly, I can't say how common or uncommon that is, but one thing is for sure - good locks cost.

 

[9fingers]

Hi guys,
I need some help I want to fit a high security lock on my 'shop and I don't want to have half a dozen bolts and padlocks stuck all over the door. What I was planning to use was a five point lock for a timber door like this one - central lock, 2 hooks, 2 shoot bolts. My issue is that the door opening is only 1800mm high and I'm not sure if I can chop that much off. Anyne have any experience of cutting to length? Also, is Fort a good brand name or are there better options out there? Or as good options for a lower price?
Thanks

If only I knew you were interested the other day. I could have shown you my homemade 3 point lock in my workshop. Much more fun than buying one!!

The switch to the right of the lock automatically turns out the lights, cuts off non essential power, disconnects the phone (so it can't be heard ringing if we are out) and sends a signal up to the house to say the shop is locked up. It also has the potential to be integrated into the alarm system.
All bought to you by 'Over the top' engineering solutions :lol: :lol:

Bob

 

[Dibs-h]

Bob - you still can. Come on then, some details please.

 

[9fingers]

The rectangular plate covers a disc that is linked to the two vertical bars and a short horizontal one. Just under a quarter turn anti clockwise drives the top bar up, the bottom bar down and the horizontal one sideways.

Approx 45 degree turn clockwise operates a normal door catch to release the latch so that the door will slam shut and release by the handle turning.

When the 3 lock bars ( each 3/8" x 3/4" solid steel) are driven home, the external key operated cylinder slides the chrome steel bar sideways to immobilise the lower locking bar and hence the other two are locked as well.

The right hand end of the bar operated the electrical switching.

Does that help? All made with stock steel sections, a lathe and milling machine.

Bob

 

[JoinerySolutions]

Another in agreement with Dean, also add a 6mm x30mm or similar strap screwed to the frame (inside) at 100 to 150mm intervals, top to bottom on both sides to stop the frame splitting when someone trys to kick in the door. It is surprisingly easier to do than many think. I had to do it on my neighbours flat, when they locked themselves into their lounge! Long story, I went back next day and repaired and adjusted everything so it will be flippin hard to do again. :lol:

 

[joiner_sim]

I recommend using this system: http://www.kenricks.co.uk/pro_exca_door_lock.php I have cut them down in the past and used extension bolts for taller doors! You should contact the manufacturer before ordering to the the minimum you can cut an espag system down to which ever one you choose.

Picture of a door with locking system on: http://www.freewebs.com/simonswoodwork/Image026.jpg The door in the picture is rebated as it is part of a pair of doors.

 

[DeanN]

Bob, what cylinder have you on the outside of that lock?

 

[9fingers]

It is a French one. Bit like our older style rim lock Yale one but a non standard key profile so might be a bit more difficult to get a key.
Could always be drilled out but there are two alarms before anyone even gets near the shop.

Bob

 

[Dan-K]

Thanks for the useful info guys, afraid I'm still a fan of the multi-point lock at the moment - should have said that I'll be pairing it with a high security cylinder like the GeGe RAM, anti-bump, anti-pick, anti-drill, anti-everything cylinder There will also be a Yale alarm and the shop is attached to the house so I'll hear it....and the only access is via the back garden, which has a gate, potentially lockable if I'm paranoid enough

Bob, I wish I'd seen that - I'm a big fan of over-engineering I love your solution, but I'm time-poor, I don't have enough time to do my current projects let alone turn my hand to lock-making...do you do commissions?

Sim - I'll take a look.

I'll have to re-read everything here and digest it properly I think - cheers everyone

 

[DeanN]

Thanks Bob - I had a feeling it was French, and the French do like cylinders. If its the keyway I'm thinking of, its a U shape and very difficult to pick open. Nice.

Dan - if you're set on the MPT, then go with one that doesn't use shoot bolts top/bottom, as these are usually the first item to fail, and WILL result in you being unable to open the door. Don't forget to buy the frame keeps with the mechanism, and don't spend a fortune on a cylinder - buying one with a restricted profile should be sufficient, as the blanks aren't readily available to create bump keys with.

 

[ColeyS1]

It was only the other day someone was showing me a new euro lock.

I thought they were alright untill he told me about the 'bump/snap/drill or bypass most cylinders' way of getting around them. He then showed me a new type euro lock, that when snapped or drilled fired some magnets or some other strange shoot bolts so the lock couldnt be compromised. Wasn't really listening to much but it sounded alright :roll:

simon

 

[Dan-K]

I've had a good think about the advice given now - thanks for all the info

If I wanted to keep the shop to single-key-to-open (arising partly from previous forum advice not to make it look like Fort Knox and advertise that kit of value is inside) then multi-point seems the way to go. I was originally keen on 5-point locking but if the shootbolts are a bad idea then 3-point is the way to go. Hookbolts look like they might be better than deadbolts but I'm prepared to be corrected here :wink: And I found Ferco does a 25 year guarantee so I'm guessing its a better product than Fort/Era with 5 year guarantee. So I'm looking at a Ferco hookbolt 3-point door lock currently. Is this a better bet?

I have just spent this evening looking for a high security cylinder to suit. I have spent some time browsing the largest internet resource on lock bumping, picking etc (aka youtube ) and I have found a lock with NO videos of embarrassing failure in under a minute, and even a reference to it being unpickable :shock: It is the EVVA 3KS cylinder. Futuristic looking key, but could be money well spent I feel. It is a high security restricted profile anti-pick, anti-bump, anti-snap, anti-drill cylinder. It is available in euro, oval and rim cylinder (any preference?). I was planning to go for the cylinder + turn option (so the wife can't lock me in and throw away the key to the unbreakable lock :lol: ). Sound OK?

I'd value any further advice before I take the plunge. I did consider avoiding cylinders altogether but I figure the old 5-lever locks can still be picked/drilled and can't be all that secure or cylinders wouldn't be so popular. Thanks for your help

 

[Setch]

I'm not a fan of multipoint locks in timber doors, timber moves, and Multipoint locks can't cope with the alignment issues this creates. If your door moves, and you have to use extra force to operate the lock, it will fail prematuely and be very expensive to replace.

I also don't like the fact that mpl systems require you to remove a lot of timber near the edge of the door, and fit a large number of screws, all in line, in the edge of the door. This is an invitation for the edge of the door to split, and this is exactly what I've seen when I am called to wooden MPL locks which have been forced open.

The convenience of one central locking point is also it's weakness - only one lock to overcome to open all the locking points.

If you're after real security on a timber door, go with good quality BS 3621 deadlocks, and fit security escutcheons and frame reinforcers to prevent door or frame splitting under brute force attack.

(NB: I'm a full time locksmith, who boths fits locks, opens locks, replaces locks which break, and gets called to the aftermath of unauthozied openings by scumbags. Just my 2 pence based on this experience.)

 

[Dan-K]

Thanks Setch, with that kind of a CV I really do need to take notice I guess
And you echo others who have not been keen on MPLs. My resistance is faltering...

The convenience of one central locking point is also it's weakness - only one lock to overcome to open all the locking points.

This is why I wanted a high security cylinder. Do you have any experience with the EVVA 3KS? Interested to know expert opinion, as having supplementary locks would not be necessary if they can't open the primary one

mpl systems require you to remove a lot of timber near the edge of the door, and fit a large number of screws, all in line, in the edge of the door.

This has been a concern, though I was planning for the door to be around 3" thick so the central screws should be around 30mm from the edge, nice and long and held in solid oak. To my mind a full length strip secured in this way would be harder to force than the local weakness caused by morticing in a deadlock, which can be smashed out using localised force (eg as with 'the Enforcer' battering ram police use on drug raids etc for exactly this purpose, or maybe a well-placed boot or sledgehammer). I guess the frame reinforcers you mention help to make this more difficult. Anyway brute force is less of a concern as the house is almost always occupied and the 'shop will also be alarmed so sustained attack is unlikely.

timber moves, and Multipoint locks can't cope with the alignment issues this creates

I think this might be the killer. I have no immediate solution to this one currently. Though if I sheath the whole door in steel I can constrain movement at the leading edge....back to the drawing board! :lol: Thanks for all the valuable info

 

[DeanN]

By all accounts, the 3KS system is good, but very expensive, and obtaining duplicate keys at a later date will also be expensive. There is very little point in buying an expensive cylinder that is anti bump/snap/drill etc. when the mechanism is equally at risk of attack.

To answer an earlier point you raised - yes BS rated locks can be picked or drilled, and the videos on the internet make this look very easy. However, most of these videos are rigged by doctoring the levers or spending days learning the picking sequence for that particular lock.

Spend some time with a warrant locksmith who gains entry into properties for a living, and you'll soon realise why they smile when approaching a UPVC door, and groan when faced with a timber door loaded with BS mortice locks - and they have expensive decoders and picks to overcome them!