Mujingfang Metal Mouth problem

[LocalOak]

Hi

First post and a problem I have not been able to find an answer for anywhere. If I've not done my search properly my apologies, I'm new to this site.

Anyway. I have just received a brand new Mujingfang high angle smoother (http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psPro ... /AH1072155 edited to add back link) and as soon as I put my straight edge across the sole I found a high spot just in front on the mouth. Easy I thought, just joint it. Then I looked closer and realised that the front of the mouth is metal, what looks like a piece of steel driven into the sole, slightly wider than the mouth and about 1/4" deep. It is sitting proud of the sole, proud enough to feel with finger tips and clearly shows up with a straight edge.

So I have two questions.

1. Is it a problem? (I'm guessing yes, but I don't know)

2. How to get rid of it?

I'm assuming that lapping it like a metal plane risks wearing away the wood much faster and making the problem far worse.

I am not very experienced at fettling planes but keen, I've managed to turn an old 17" wooden plane into a nice jack and have adjusted an old Record #4 to get very nice transparent shavings and a smooth surface on pine, oak and mahogany. I wouldn't mind having a go at getting this right but I don't know if its possible.

Any help gratefully received.

Thanks

Toby

 

[jmk89]

I would answer your two questions this way:
1. it sounds like it might be a problem, but the best thing to do is to take a bit of scrap timber and plane it with the Record first (to use as your control) and then with the Muji - if you can adjust the Muji to get nice thin shavings, then the metal mouth piece is not a problem, so don't try to fix it. (I suppose this is a sub-rule of the "if it ain't broke, don't" principle - sort of - "before fixing, find out if it's broke").
2. I would first try fine needle files (perhaps those zippy diamond ones) to get the metal plate down to the level of the wood (or below) and then joint.

 

[LocalOak]

Wow, quick response and thanks. I'll go play with it

Toby

 

[CHJ]

Toby, you can put your link back if you think it will help explain the problem, the "report to moderator" is just the spam trap catching your post as a new poster. It will leave you alone after a few posts.

If the "report" message comes up again just leave it and someone will clean up the link for you.

And welcome to the forum

 

[LocalOak]

Chas

thanks for that, I did wonder but didn't want to offend in my first post!

The link was simply this one, to the rutlands website listing of the plane http://www.rutlands.co.uk/cgi-bin/psPro ... /AH1072155

Thanks, too, for your greeting. I've been lurking for a little while, mountain of useful and fascinating information; hours of reading...

Toby

 

[Philly]

Toby
A down side of a metal wear strip is that you can't plane the sole flat, as you have discovered. Good news is it is easy to fix, though.
Tape a sheet of sandpaper (say 120 grit) on a flat surface like the table of a surface planer, table saw, etc. Retract the iron but leave it fully tensioned. Then carefully lap the sole on the sandpaper, taking care to grip the plane evenly. Take a few strokes and then check with the straight edge.
It might be worth making some lines along the sole with a white pencil so you can see where material is being removed.
Hopefully that will sort it - wooden planes occasionally need flattening, especially until they become fully acclimatised to your workshop. Don't forget - your plane has come all the way from China!
Hope this helps
Philly

 

[bugbear]

Toby
A down side of a metal wear strip is that you can't plane the sole flat, as you have discovered. Good news is it is easy to fix, though.
Tape a sheet of sandpaper (say 120 grit) on a flat surface like the table of a surface planer, table saw, etc. Retract the iron but leave it fully tensioned. Then carefully lap the sole on the sandpaper, taking care to grip the plane evenly. Take a few strokes and then check with the straight edge.
It might be worth making some lines along the sole with a white pencil so you can see where material is being removed.

Be very careful when doing this. It is easy for the metal part to remain high, and act as a pivot, leading to the wooden parts around it becoming very convex.

BugBear

 

[David C]

If paper shorter than the plane is used with a very short stroke, one might be able to prevent any possibility of convexity.

Then when mouth area flat and plane possibly slightly hollow, take a few passes on longer paper till flat.

i.e. Make it hollow then make it flat.

180 might be sufficient?

David

 

[Philly]

Toby
A down side of a metal wear strip is that you can't plane the sole flat, as you have discovered. Good news is it is easy to fix, though.
Tape a sheet of sandpaper (say 120 grit) on a flat surface like the table of a surface planer, table saw, etc. Retract the iron but leave it fully tensioned. Then carefully lap the sole on the sandpaper, taking care to grip the plane evenly. Take a few strokes and then check with the straight edge.
It might be worth making some lines along the sole with a white pencil so you can see where material is being removed.

Be very careful when doing this. It is easy for the metal part to remain high, and act as a pivot, leading to the wooden parts around it becoming very convex.

BugBear

You're right - I have had to scrape down a brass strip before doing the above method. Thought it would be worth him trying the easy way first before we scare him off :lol:
Cheers
Philly

 

[LocalOak]

Thanks all for your advice, I'll have a go today, but slowly and carefully...

I'll let you know how I get on. Just glad this is a £25 plane to practise on.

Toby

 

[pam niedermayer]

... Just glad this is a £25 plane to practise on.

Admirable attitude, but I'm not sure this is something you'll encounter outside the Mujinfang line. Usually either the brass covers the entire sole (HNT Gordon shoulder planes) or there's no brass there at all.

Pam

 

[LocalOak]

Pam

I'm sure you're right about the HNT range, I have been doing a bit of drooling over them. But after splashing out on a LV LA Jack as my first big time plane purchase (still waiting for it to arrive - come on Royal Mail) I felt I could not afford anything else too pricey. The reviews of the muji's have been good and I thought a reasonable place to start, I know they are capable of very good results if properly handled but will not break the bank.

And I also have a confession to make, I ordered this late at night and thought I was getting a 45 degree version, but it turns out to be the 60 degree. Not a problem, I do have some tricky oak to deal with, but maybe I should learn not to buy late at night

Toby

 

[pam niedermayer]

Toby, my comment wasn't meant to have any value judgement at all, it was simply to note that the Mujinfang sole is not normal. It could be the best arrangement since sliced bread, there must be some reason for the great reviews.

Pam

 

[newt]

My brass insert is flush with the wood.

 

[Corset]

I have one of these that i have been trying to get to work. I keep getting the blade slipping which is driving me nuts, should i be hammering the wedge harder??
Secondly i have sharpened by blade in usual fashion i am getting very obvious scallops when planing panels. I do not normally have this problem and even with a very light cut it is quite obvious. Is this a setting problem or a side effect with this style of plane. I have resharpened it twice to get a more subtle/flat bevel but as i am not sharpening it any different to my other planes i am a little baffled.
I sharpen on the veritas power sharpener.

 

[LocalOak]

Well I can now report that I think my attempts at levelling have been a success!

I started off with a short piece of 180 grit taped flat and made very short strokes around the mouth to level out the brass, which it did remarkably quickly.

I then sanded the whole sole of the plane on a much longer piece of 180 grit to get the whole thing level. It now is now pretty flat according to my straight edge, not perfect but not bad at all.

I then tried it out with the factory sharpened iron, again not bad but not great. Sharpened the blade by lapping the back with a medium then fine DMT followed by mirror polish on a 6000 waterstone. Then honed the bevel with a Veritas Mk II honer (no camber), on 800 then 6000 waterstones (nothing in between) and put a very very very slight camber on it just by hand pressure one side then the other.

Its now producing shaving 0.002" relatively easily and after about ten minutes of playing around with the blade adjustment I got 0.001" shavings over a knot in the edge of a piece of oak! I'm pretty impressed as I really am a beginner at this. The adjusting is fiddly but I just stuck at it and resisted the temptation to do 2 knocks rather than one, am amazed a how relatively gentle taps can make such a big difference.

Now all I need to do is learn how to use it properly as when I tried planing the face of the oak board (bought as planed wood so machine planed smooth but still with some ridges) I couldn't get it to do very much at all. I suspect a lot more practice is in order...


And Pam, sorry, didn't take your comment as a value judgement at all, just felt the (irrational) desire to explain myself to the woodworking world

Thanks very much for your help

Toby

 

[LocalOak]

Corset

I probably don't have the experience to help but I have been putting my wedge in reasonably firmly (however, I have no way of defining "reasonably") and its not slipped at all. I have noticed that the wedge is flat on one side and gently cambered on the other and have been placing the flat side against the blade.

And I've had no trace of scalloping but I have not been able to plane a face succesfully yet so if I was you I wouldn't listen to me...

Toby

 

[Philly]

Toby
Glad you got it sorted - well done!

Corset
It sounds like the wedge needs a tweak - take a close look at the wedge and see it there are shiny areas on each "prong". The wedge needs to contact boths sides of the escapement equally.
Try wiggling the wedge side to side and watch where it seems to pivot - this will be a high spot. Using a scraper remove the shiny high spot and test fit again. Normally, a couple of shavings should get you back in the zone.
Hammering the wedge excessively is bad for the plane - a gentle tap or two should be enough. If you need more the wedge needs tweaking.
I've put a small video on YouTube on this subject.....

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbYEEJWmu4

Hope this helps
Philly

 

[pam niedermayer]

Yeah, the wedge can also be too small to hold a set. This happened to me with the LN 1/2" shoulder plane, so I waited for some humidity and all was fine. If it had been a big deal, such as not having had another shoulder to use, I would have made a dry weather wedge.

Pam

 

[Corset]

Right, I will have a look and see whats happening and hopefully get it sorted.
Owen