Mortise Walls Rough or Smooth?

[Jelly]

Yes I do and I'm not the only one. Cutting mortices for locks in doors are done this way. There are many hand tool skills books that show mortices done this way. (Roger Holmes, and excellent maker trained by Alan Peters shows it done this way, my dad did it this way) There is evidence in lots of old furniture that it can be done this way.

....

A couple of proper mortice chisel will be the best course to take for future work , but this wasn't the question either. If we are just going to recommend more equipment, then a hollow chisel Morticer would be good too, and bench top models are quite affordable these days. But the question was how to get smoother with BE chisels. Using the chisels as designed to, rather than trying to do something they are not ideal for would be the most logical course of action.

...

If you can't keep a drill brace upright, then you might not be able to keep a BE chisel upright either. both just require a bit of application and practice and a bit of tape will gauge the depth, that is not uncommon.

Just to be clear, I'm not interested what books say or who was trained by who and does what... In a subject as diverse and confused as woodworking, the "appeal to authority" is even more fallacious than it would normally be. Lock mortices are much like the large mortices worked in framing applications, in that there's an awful lot of material to remove so working them with a chisel alone will be sub-optimal so another approach is required (and since you mentioned machines, when I was making doors, we used a chain morticer to cut the lock mortices; No point mucking about, just get it done in 30 seconds).

You seem to have this idea that everyone's BE chisels are thise fine paring chisels, in which case I don't know what world you're in, but it sure ain't this one... Whilst Bevel-Edged can refer to a chisel with no or barely any lands on the side, it increasingly refers to a chisel a little thinner than a firmer with the upper edges eased but a significant land on the sides still.... you have to spend a fair chunk of of money to get anything else.

Finally, I rather get the impression that you're actually trying to be rude under a veil of helpfulness with your edit... I'm quite capable of both drilling straight and holding a chisel straight. However, the latter is rather easier than the former when you're talking about a relatively small hole to be made and even a tiny inaccuracy (i.e. the kind of thing that will happen when you're relying on the human body to keep something dead perpendicular to a flat plane) with the angle of the bit can mar the edge of the mortice quite easily; In my mind there is absolutely no point making the job any harder than it needs to be, Occam's razor and all that jazz, and drilling is both time consuming and awkward compared to just getting on with it, so long as you can deliver a good hard mallet blow, you'll be done chopping long before you'd have finished mucking about with a drill.

 

[Jacob]

.....
To coin a phrase "not so" . Never needed a shallow mortice to drill straight, even on deep horizontal sash locks. Seems like an extra step that's not required. Each to their own though. Just been itching tho use the "not so" for so long :lol:

"Spuriousity" is a good one! I keep trying to get "correct" into my posts; I didn't realise there were so many "correct" ways of doing things, as distinct from the generally spurious stuff which I do. :roll: Then there's the 4 thou fine adjustment - which isn't fair to ask as my eyesight isn't up to it without a microscope.

 

[G S Haydon]

Just for the record, the new word "spuriousity" is copyright of me

 

[G S Haydon]

Toothing planes are a spurious analogy as hide glue in veneering does not work the same as PVA type glues. Modern glues work best with smooth, close fitting joints. Best is planed finishes, so the closer we can get to this ideal the better. I'm not saying that mortices are ever that smooth. But since we don't know how rough the OP's mortices are, we have to assume they are rough enough to worry about.

Mike, this is not a petty comeback. I just wanted to check myself after I used my toothing plane analogy. First off a few caveats. I'm not advocating poorly made joints, the majority of ours are machine cut and very smooth and dial in accurate. Also I'm not trying to find fault.

You may have seen this http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue_methods.html before in which case forgive me. On these limited tests the "gapped" joints were the best. I'm assuming the gapping was perhaps a bit rough too. Perhaps my comments were not as spurious as first thought?

 

[woodbrains]

Just to be clear, I'm not interested what books say or who was trained by who and does what... In a subject as diverse and confused as woodworking, the "appeal to authority" is even more fallacious than it would normally be. Lock mortices are much like the large mortices worked in framing applications, in that there's an awful lot of material to remove so working them with a chisel alone will be sub-optimal so another approach is required (and since you mentioned machines, when I was making doors, we used a chain morticer to cut the lock mortices; No point mucking about, just get it done in 30 seconds).

You seem to have this idea that everyone's BE chisels are thise fine paring chisels, in which case I don't know what world you're in, but it sure ain't this one... Whilst Bevel-Edged can refer to a chisel with no or barely any lands on the side, it increasingly refers to a chisel a little thinner than a firmer with the upper edges eased but a significant land on the sides still.... you have to spend a fair chunk of of money to get anything else.

Finally, I rather get the impression that you're actually trying to be rude under a veil of helpfulness with your edit... I'm quite capable of both drilling straight and holding a chisel straight. However, the latter is rather easier than the former when you're talking about a relatively small hole to be made and even a tiny inaccuracy (i.e. the kind of thing that will happen when you're relying on the human body to keep something dead perpendicular to a flat plane) with the angle of the bit can mar the edge of the mortice quite easily; In my mind there is absolutely no point making the job any harder than it needs to be, Occam's razor and all that jazz, and drilling is both time consuming and awkward compared to just getting on with it, so long as you can deliver a good hard mallet blow, you'll be done chopping long before you'd have finished mucking about with a drill.

Hello,

It is hot, Jelly, calm down, I am not intending on being rude. But if you are going to say something silly like it is hard to drill perpendicular holes and control their depth, you might get a curt reply. drilling for screw holes, dowel holes, you name it, need to be perpendicular, it is a universal skill which can be applied to other puposes.

Just get on with chopping mortices with a big hammer and cheap chisel if you want, but then just keep getting rougher mortice walls than we might like. The OP asks how to get smoother walls, not how to just forget about it and pretend it is the way it is done. I suspect you don't do a lot of mortice chopping with BE chisels anyway, so why would you advise others to. And if you don't chop mortices with BE chisels, why? Is it perhaps that it is not a particularly good way of doing it? This is what add to the fallacy and the poor OP must wonder how, after all the advice, he is still chopping his mortices with BE chisels and still getting rough walls.

If we don't take example from what other fine makers do, then where is our point of reference? We cannot just say that we don't care, that they are just adding to the fallacy of correctness. You are expecting others to take advice from you, otherwise you wouldn't post on these forums. So why should we believe you, how do you qualify what you say? I have not assumed that everyones chisels are fine tools, but you are assuming the OP's chisels aren't, how do you know?

It seems to me, that the OP was having trouble using a tool not best suited to the task. We all know there are better tools to do the job, this is incontestable. Giving another option with the equipment specified, which does work and has others attest to it working, seems to be a better answer to the question than any of the other posts stating just carry on, ignore the roughness, et al.

Mike.

 

[woodbrains]

Toothing planes are a spurious analogy as hide glue in veneering does not work the same as PVA type glues. Modern glues work best with smooth, close fitting joints. Best is planed finishes, so the closer we can get to this ideal the better. I'm not saying that mortices are ever that smooth. But since we don't know how rough the OP's mortices are, we have to assume they are rough enough to worry about.

Mike, this is not a petty comeback. I just wanted to check myself after I used my toothing plane analogy. First off a few caveats. I'm not advocating poorly made joints, the majority of ours are machine cut and very smooth and dial in accurate. Also I'm not trying to find fault.

You may have seen this http://woodgears.ca/joint_strength/glue_methods.html before in which case forgive me. On these limited tests the "gapped" joints were the best. I'm assuming the gapping was perhaps a bit rough too. Perhaps my comments were not as spurious as first thought?

Hello,

This is interesting, but the point I was making, was that hide glue works with a certain amount of keying to the surface, like epoxy resin, contact adhesive etc. but PVA does not. There is no real strength in the glue itself, it does not bond that way, althogh no one realy knows how it works (the last time I tried to find out, science might have answered this more recently) The best guess is that it works at the weak molecular interaction level and needs close fitting joints.

There was a spurious statement in the test above, which says that the glue will not work on super smooth surfaces, so the tester roughd them up with a scraper. This might be true of a resin type glue, but the best surface for PVA is planed smooth. I have done similar tests, and edge joints on boards are almost unbreakable when the mating surfaces are planed super smooth with a very sharp plane.

Also, a gappy joint that is relatively new, will get some strength just from the fact it is packed out with stuff in the gaps, but this is not the same as a bond. Give a season or two when the glue has parted company from the sides, the joint will fail with ease. I do note that in the tests, most of the joint failure was in the glue line. A good glue joint will fail in the wood, the glue joint will not be broken.

Try and edge glue some sawn softwood and the same with a handplaned surface. The results will speak for themseves.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

.....We all know there are better tools to do the job, ...

You are missing the point - the OP doesn't have the correct tools. He is using his best available tools for the job - which is the correct thing to do in the circumstances and not the result of spurious advice - nor the dreaded fallacy of correctness.

 

[bugbear]

.....We all know there are better tools to do the job, ...

You are missing the point - the OP doesn't have the correct tools. He is using his best available tools for the job - which is the correct thing to do in the circumstances and not the result of spurious advice - nor the dreaded fallacy of correctness.

If someone is trying to rip a big timber with a 16 TPI saw because it's "his best available tools for the job" I would advise buying a saw with bigger teeth.

I wouldn't try to invent some stupid method of ripping with a too fine saw.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

.....We all know there are better tools to do the job, ...

You are missing the point - the OP doesn't have the correct tools. He is using his best available tools for the job - which is the correct thing to do in the circumstances and not the result of spurious advice - nor the dreaded fallacy of correctness.

If someone is trying to rip a big timber with a 16 TPI saw because it's "his best available tools for the job" I would advise buying a saw with bigger teeth.

I wouldn't try to invent some stupid method of ripping with a too fine saw.

BugBear

Don't be silly - you couldn't rip much with a 16 tpi saw. It wouldn't be the best available tool, it wouldn't do at all. You couldn't rip much with a butter knife either.
You can cut a mortice with (almost) any chisel.

PS Don't you ever watch those great escape films? They cut their way out with a sharp pieces of cheese and unpick locks with gherkins etc etc. We'd all be off to the woods and you would be left behind looking a bit of a chump! :lol: :lol:

 

[Jelly]

It is hot, Jelly, calm down, I am not intending on being rude. But if you are going to say something silly like it is hard to drill perpendicular holes and control their depth, you might get a curt reply. drilling for screw holes, dowel holes, you name it, need to be perpendicular, it is a universal skill which can be applied to other puposes.

First off I'm perfectly calm, and for full disclosure I've also been at a wake for most of the day, where a great deal of alcohol was served (and consumed), so perhaps I'm even more tactless and direct than usual...
Moving swiftly onward; as ever, you've missed the point, it's easier to keep a chisel perpendicular (where the width of the bevel will register to the face of the workpiece, meaning that one of the three axes is self aligning) than it is to do the same with a drill bit which is started resting on a point, it's also easier to correct a misaligned chisel; if you don't get it just so with a drill, then it's too bad you're committed... Moreover none of the examples you give of other uses of drilling actually need it to be dead square; so long as it's about right it will work just fine, however if you're drilling a mortice to "near net shape" with a bit that is almost or exactly the desired width, then even a tiny deviation from perfectly square in either direction will damage one of the mortice walls.

Just get on with chopping mortices with a big hammer and cheap chisel if you want, but then just keep getting rougher mortice walls than we might like. The OP asks how to get smoother walls, not how to just forget about it and pretend it is the way it is done. I suspect you don't do a lot of mortice chopping with BE chisels anyway, so why would you advise others to. And if you don't chop mortices with BE chisels, why? Is it perhaps that it is not a particularly good way of doing it? This is what add to the fallacy and the poor OP must wonder how, after all the advice, he is still chopping his mortices with BE chisels and still getting rough walls.

I chop mortices with what I have available, if i have a mortice chisel in the right size, I'll use that, if not i'll use a firmer or bevel edge quite happily, and even if it does end up looking a bit scratty inside, with the whole joint executed properly I'll still get a good mechanical interface and a perfectly strong joint... I'd certainly never use a hammer though, that would just damage my chisels, i have a big heavy mallet for chopping tasks.

If we don't take example from what other fine makers do, then where is our point of reference? We cannot just say that we don't care, that they are just adding to the fallacy of correctness. You are expecting others to take advice from you, otherwise you wouldn't post on these forums. So why should we believe you, how do you qualify what you say? I have not assumed that everyones chisels are fine tools, but you are assuming the OP's chisels aren't, how do you know?

The OP has actually talked about his chisels elsewhere, if I've read him correctly they're the same one's I used to be issued by my employer, so I have personal experience of them.
I don't expect anyone to take my advice, I'm merely expressing my opinion such as it is... but to answer your question I think that the opinion of one person (however good) is as nothing to both my personal experience and the collective wisdom of all those I deal with, having worked in the joinery trade and with a great many woodworkers (and heard the opinions of many more online) it's clear to me that drilling small mortices is far more hassle than its worth, and can even be harder than just getting on with it.

It seems to me, that the OP was having trouble using a tool not best suited to the task. We all know there are better tools to do the job, this is incontestable. Giving another option with the equipment specified, which does work and has others attest to it working, seems to be a better answer to the question than any of the other posts stating just carry on, ignore the roughness

Actually as I read it, the question was more "Is a rough surface inside my mortice going to weaken it" to which there is an absolutely incontestable answer of "so long as the mortice and tenon fit together sufficiently tightly, then the quality of the surfaces being mated is irrelevant".

In any case I really can't be arsed arguing with you anymore... The more of your posts I read, the more it becomes clear that it's pointless engaging you in discussion, as it's just a platform for you to insist you're right, like as not in absolute terms... and if there's one thing I hate, it's absolutes... It is extremely rare for anyone other than teenagers and the supremely arrogant to talk in absolute terms!

 

[Corneel]

In my experience (which is rather limited compared to all the joiners available here), drilling then chisseling a mortice is a pain. When you use normal drillbits, you can't overlap the holes very well, so there are large triangular bits of wood in between which want to jam your chisel all the time. Pairing the sides of the mortice straight and true isn't easy either. And even when using a drillpress, getting it straight and all holes in one line isn't as reliable as it should be. For my kitchen I made 14 panel doors using this method, and it was a good method to develop a headache.

My latest effort trying to make mortices with a japanese chisel with a trapezoid shape, wasn't much of a succes either. Not enough registration I guess, like you get from a firmer or mortice chisel. Overall by far the easiest method for me is with a firmer or with the one mortice chisel I have.

 

[bugbear]

PS Don't you ever watch those great escape films? They cut their way out with a sharp pieces of cheese and unpick locks with gherkins etc etc. We'd all be off to the woods and you would be left behind looking a bit of a chump! :lol: :lol:

You've posited your "what would you do on a desert island" notion before.

It was irrelevant then, it's irrelevant now.

You could probably cut a mortise with a sharpened rusty nail, but only a fool would do so, given better choices.

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

PS Don't you ever watch those great escape films? They cut their way out with a sharp pieces of cheese and unpick locks with gherkins etc etc. We'd all be off to the woods and you would be left behind looking a bit of a chump! :lol: :lol:

You've posited your "what would you do on a desert island" notion before.

It was irrelevant then, it's irrelevant now.

You could probably cut a mortise with a sharpened rusty nail, but only a fool would do so, given better choices.

BugBear

Don't be silly. Nobody is suggesting you choose the worst available tool.